IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 704
Rule 8:15 use of BPMS at World Championships
Date Opened 2021-07-06
Date Closed 2021-07-30
See all other issues
Here is the issue

Hi all, we need to decide if BPMS and relative tollerance will be mandatory for worlds.

Please comment and vote.
YES: BPMS and relative toolerances mandatory
NO:  BPMS and relative tollerances not mandatory
-------------------------------------------
2021-07-06
Dana Garcia comments: I vote No. The Rule and Tolerances as they stand in the current Rule Book are not optimal. We know there are issues with the current language and tolerances. We do not want another issue such as Swiss Pro. We have been using Sure Path as a \"guide\" in the US with a monitor in the judges tower. We are following the End Course Video Rule. I suggest we follow this protocol.
Dana Garcia votes NO
2021-07-06
Larry Gisler comments: I think os not ready no
Larry Gisler votes NO
2021-07-06
Richard Carlson comments: At the meeting in May it was decided to postpone the decision so that additional data and information could be collected. It would be helpful if some feedback from the competitions since then could be shared.
2021-07-07
Larry Gisler comments: I think os not ready no
Larry Gisler votes NO
2021-07-07
Candido Moz comments: Richard, I didn\'t receive any information, I can ask Mario and Will as they where driving in some events were the system has been used to send me thir report.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2021-07-08
Geoffrey Kee has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee is not voting at this time
2021-07-08
Geoffrey Kee has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee is not voting at this time
2021-07-09
Felix Loreto has read the issue and has no comment
2021-07-12
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2021-07-12
Ricardo Botas has read the issue and has no comment
2021-07-12
Jacinta Carroll comments: I think its not ready to be used at worlds, but should be used as a reflective guide.
2021-07-13
Dana Garcia comments: Good Morning. We have been using SurePath extensively in the Southern Region of the US as well as the Western and South Central Region. The system is a great tool when used in combination with the End Course Video. The issue is not with SurePath itself but the Rule as it is Written. The Data into the Scoring Program and the Judges Screen is Great. The Zone Rule is NOT ready for roll out and sometimes the Buoy # is out because the skier made a hard S Turn. Cumulative has been  a good tool as well. It is beneficial when you are watching end course and you think the driver might be moving too much- and you look at the data from SurePath- and it looks good or not good. We have found that adding a piece of painters tape to the pylon helps the boat crew determine if the antenna has shifted. You may notice the driver is suddenly driving down one side of the course on your SurePath Screen, but actually the antenna has shifted a bit. the Painters tape makes this an easy check in the boat.
Dana Garcia is not voting at this time
2021-07-14
Glen Williams comments: Evening all , Sure path is a great tool and is having the intended consequence of straightening up our driving and offering a fair level playing field for our skiers , whether it is in the rules or not . That is a good thing . Before we can reintroduce it as mandatory for tournaments I agree we need to tidy up the rules with a greater tolerance to accomodate the S turn situation Dana mentions and also the situation Will Asher had at the Swiss pro am . I also agree we do not want endless rerides at tournaments especially big events however I believe our drivers can drive within tolerance once we sort out our rule . 
I think we either sort out the wording of the rule now or postpone the re introduction until we do so . 

Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2021-07-14
Donal Connolly comments: I agree the rule needs tweaking for the \"Will Asher\" scenario but I believe that is easily done.
This idea that a skier doing an S turn is pulling the boat out of tolerance is - I believe - not reasonable.
The measurement zone finishes when the PYLON of the boat is 10m after the buoy.
Even on a 9.75 rope that means that the SKI is maximum 7-8 metres past the buoy - 5 ski lengths. I do not believe the skier is doing an S turn in that distance and pulling the boat out of tolerance. At 11.25 rope the ski is maximum 4-5 metres past the buoy.

Regards

Donal
2021-07-14
Larry Gisler comments: Hello
      I recieve some comment for driver s , that the problem is when the skier is pulling after second wake ,just for arrive at the next buoy, with out think in turning .
Is really hard keep the boat on tolerance , please note sometimes when skier do S and  arrive 10m before next gate until go in to meke the buoy
Larry
Larry Gisler is not voting at this time
2021-07-19
Candido Moz comments: Hi all, we need to conclude, only 2 votes up to now, please vote.

Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2021-07-19
Richard Carlson comments: It is widely accepted that the BPMS systems currently in use accurately measure the position of the pylon throughout the course. There also seems to be acceptance with the section of rules covering buoy deviation and cumulative deviation.
If there is a problem with the zone deviation perhaps we could consider dropping this section of the rule until it can be redrafted. We then just use buoy and cumulative deviations in the meantime.
There has also been some discussion about the \"Will Asher\" scenario. If the boat is moved more than 20 cm due to a long pull to buoy then this is still a reride even under the under the old rule. 

2021-07-19
Christophe Duverger comments: yes
Christophe Duverger votes YES
2021-07-19
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: I vote yes and propose to issue as aoon as possible a clear wording concerning the relative rule. The use of BPMS in full, will bring more positive to the sport. If our final decision is no, probably we will keep on talking for another year
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
2021-07-19
Bruce Cockburn comments: I belive we need to start using the BPMS tracking lets keep adjusting the rules but we need to start using it
I vote Yes
Bruce Cockburn votes YES
2021-07-19
Bruce Cockburn comments: I belive we need to start using the BPMS tracking lets keep adjusting the rules but we need to start using it
I vote Yes
Bruce Cockburn votes YES
2021-07-19
Manon Costard comments: Hi all, 

I do think the rule needs to be reworded in a way that: if the boat is out of tolerances on the + side at the last buoy the skier got around (hence the buoy to which the skier pulled as long and hard as he could), then the skier gets a reride with no option to improve but a protected score of eg.3 if he S-turned 4.

I do not think S-turns pull enough on the driver to take the boat out of tolerances after the buoy. Iif anything, it would pull the boat away from the next buoy but would not affect the buoy in question. We should ask Will Bush for confirmation though. 

From talking to a few drivers who pulled pro events with sure path, it didn\'t seem like there would bee too many rerides. Perhaps we could ask James for feedback on his data. I am sure he would get it to us very quickly.

Overall, I think the rule can be reworded very easily and I would be in favour of using it as soon as possible as it is the way to make competitions fair. We must be testing the rule before Worlds and make sure we don\'t come across other issues as we did at Swiss. 
Manon Costard is not voting at this time
2021-07-19
James Timothy comments: I am not able to give any precise data without more time but I have certainly not had any feedback that using SP has led to any significant increase in re-rides given (or even considered when SP was used in an advisory capacity). Indeed it could be argued that the re-ride count is only the same as should have been awarded under old rules had they been applied a little more rigorously. Also I do think that any existing data should be viewed with caution. If BPMS is introduced in a mandatory capacity, driver behaviour will change to a greater or lesser extent and give new data. The Swiss Pro has been mentioned a few times in this discussion and my take from the event was how few re-rides (3) were given on the day given the rigorousness with which BPMS was applied. Both Becky and Patrice were outstanding and had to cope with the GPS antenna moving on the pylon in the earlier stages meaning that the system was erroneously telling them to be a little left or right of the true centre line. 

As an aside, I have looked again at the Will Asher re-ride and this is perhaps a case of the outcome highlighting a possible situation which in fact was not the actual cause of the re-ride. For the reason above, the boat was already a little left at the gates, 1 and 2. A hard pull out of 2 pulled it out left by only 1cm. The lack of a pull out of 3 meant that it went out again to the left after 3. Certainly the extended pull to 3 is not reflected in the boat path and had the boat been more centred to start with, the boat would have remained in tolerance throughout. In other words, Becky coped amazingly well with Will\'s long pull and this was not the problem. This does not of course take away from the fact that there is an issue with extended pulls to reach a buoy followed by an S-turn and the rules need to be able to deal with it. It merely illustrates that in this case, the apparent cause of an outcome was not the actual cause.

James
2021-07-19
Glen Williams comments: I think we need to reintroduce BPMS as mandatory with appropriate rule changes . We want the driving to be as close to the same for all competitors and if a skier is obviously advantaged then they must reride . This is fair . 
With practical sensible adjustments to the rule and the more time drivers have to get used to the system the rerides will lessen . 
This is a move in the right direction for our sport and we need to go with it and make adjustments if needed as we go . 

Glen Williams votes YES
2021-07-19
Donal Connolly comments: Mu suggestion for the rule change to deal with the \"Will Asher\" issue (this was originally proposed by Will Bush) is:
\"If a skier attempts but does not score a full buoy (score is zero, ¼, ½) the tolerances for that buoy for Zone, Buoy and Cumulative for deviation TOWARD (positive) the skier will be increased by 5cm. \"

So skier can pull the boat up to 25cm toward the buoy in that scenario and it is not a reride.
In my view if the boat gets pulled more than that the skier can legitimately argue that the boat was not in the correct place and they should be able to do it again and improve.

Donal
2021-07-19
Dana Garcia comments: I have been reporting back to Will Bush and Jerry Jackson with our progress on this topic. Will Bush has given me permission to share his thoughts, below. I have also included a link with our current PanAm BPMS Protocol. From Will Bush: All,

My recommendation, for the Worlds (U17, U21, Open) – use BPMS (Sure-Path) as outlined under Option #2 in the attached document.

Other than the Swiss tournament, all other tournaments used Option # 2 - information only, including the US Masters.

Sure-Path has given drivers and judges a better tool which is showing drivers are doing a better job across the country.  At events where Sure-Path has been available, review is done in real time and officials can ensure that all skiers get a fair ride.   The controversy comes down to rerides – yes /no – deviation at the buoy/zone – did it help/hurt the skier - etc. etc.  

With experience – personally and watching other drivers – is the +21cm / +22cm situation -  which could result in a reride.   For example – a driver’s boat path has been excellent for the entire event.  At 10.25m, the skier gets a bad start thought the gate and into #1.  Skier takes a hard hit out of #1 and pulls all the way to into #2 – falls hard – scores 1.25 buoys – deviation is +21cm.  Reride -Yes/No?  Skier improves – wins the event?

This is a great tool.  My goal has been to get skiers and officials to embrace this new technology and not view it as a hammer; or view it as being implemented unfairly.  Some officials and skiers have still not seen or used the technology. 

Again, my recommendation – We should not be implementing technology and reride rules, for World events, that we have not implemented elsewhere.

Will

PanAm BPMS Protocol:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sk2yP_duiT_DIvp4fGNDuudgjMNQgjQe/view?usp=sharing


Dana Garcia is not voting at this time
2021-07-19
Jacinta Carroll comments: I would be interested to hear from some skiers who had to experience the re-rides ect. 
Manon may be able to give some more information from a slalom point of view.
I will ask around.
Thanks
2021-07-19
Ryan Dodd comments: Are we also talking about switching it to jump ?
Ryan Dodd is not voting at this time
2021-07-19
Ryan Dodd comments: Do we have a proposal for a new wording of the rule in order for this to be used at the worlds ?
I think that is the first order of business and should delay this decision until we have that.

Ryan Dodd is not voting at this time
2021-07-20
Candido Moz comments: I pospone the deadline.
Donal I know you already discuss this with Will and the Driver Committee, have you prepared some new wording?

Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2021-07-20
Jacinta Carroll comments: I believe we do not have enough data and experience with positives and negatives of this system under all conditions. There is too many instances of the signal dropping out and not recording. If we have to pause and wait for this at a worlds, skiers may get worse or better conditions.
I believe we need to have more than 12months of use in HIGH CLASS events before subjecting it to determine results at the World Championships. We don\'t want another debacle of a world chapionships. We have had too many of them as of late!!!!
I suggest we use it as a reference tool this year, not rush the re-writing of rules, and test it more thoroughly in events that arnt the worlds.

2021-07-21
Donal Connolly comments: My wording suggestion was this - but I am not a fan of quick rule changes......
\"If a skier attempts but does not score a full buoy (score is zero, ¼, ½) the tolerances for that buoy for Zone, Buoy and Cumulative for deviation TOWARD (positive) the skier will be increased by 5cm. \"

Data from StillWaters Pro Team Challenge recently:
Passes 258 
Out of tolerance on individual buoy: 6
Out of tolerance cumulative: 2

Many tournaments in Europe have been using SurePath in full accordance with rule 8.15 without any significant problems. Rerides are given according to the rules.

But because of the AWSA decision to use SurePath only as an informational tool this year I do not personally believe that we can force it into use at the Worlds.
We need to be prepared for the possibility of seeing out of tolerance passes on SurePath at the Worlds that Judges will not be able to do anything about. The instructions to the judges will be important

Donal
2021-07-30
Robert Ritter has read the issue and has no comment
Robert Ritter votes NO
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Dana Garcia - voted No
Larry Gisler - voted No
Richard Carlson - Commented
Felix Loreto - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Ricardo Botas - Commented
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Donal Connolly - Commented
Christophe Duverger - voted Yes
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted Yes
Bruce Cockburn - voted Yes
James Timothy - Commented
Glen Williams - voted Yes
Robert Ritter - voted No
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Bob Corson
Jeffry Armstrong
Gill Hill
Candido Moz*
Robin Wright
Jose Antonio Perez Priego
Ryan Dodd*
Stian Lilleberg
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah
Sergio Font*
Javier Julio
Nigel Talamo
Geoffrey Kee*
Wayne Briant
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Georgi Renosto
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*