IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 667
Under-21 Women slalom record
Date Opened 2020-10-20
Date Closed 2020-11-20
See all other issues
Here is the issue

Under-21 Women Slalom record
Jaimee Bull
Hilltop ProAm (21W069R), 16/08/2020
Round 1, score 1.00@55/10.25
All video and paper can be find at: 
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiBKQXxbqN60hbljWByIL_s-kE9YWg?e=aaujiP

End course has been reviewed by Donal and Bob, both agree all passes are in tolerance.
Shore camera where also used as official camera for buoys call.
Review record panel has approve the score of 1@55/10.25, but I had some concern about some gate as they cannot be clearly seen from the boat/shore camera.
I have the north gate video I don’t have the south gate video, please see below Greg reply.
If you believe the record should be approved and the gates can be Judged from the boat video please vote YES

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Da: Greg Tate <greg@waterskilake.com>
Inviato: martedì 6 ottobre 2020 16:55
A: 'Candido Moz' <mozc@live.com>; 'Bob Corson' <bcorson@comcast.net>; 'JERRY JACKSON' <slalomjj@bellsouth.net>
Oggetto: RE: R: Jaime Bull record 
 
Sorry for the delay,
               I thought I replied, but I don’t see anything in my sent mail. 
I still have all of the gate video from both towers. I spent hours looking for the gate video from the south tower for Jamie’s set. I finally found where it should have been. I can see Jamie skiing back towards the starting dock after her 41 off pass & hear the judges on that tower saying they didn’t notice the that the camera was not on. 
There is about a 20 min gap in the video & that is where Jamie skied. 
               Sorry, I don’t have anything to send for the south tower video. 
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2020-10-20
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2020-10-20
Ricardo Botas has read the issue and has no comment
2020-10-20
Bruce Cockburn comments: I have loked at boat view of gates and am happy the view shows her gates clearly in on both the 10.75 and 10.25m passes
I am happy to apprve this record
Bruce Cockburn votes YES
2020-10-20
Robert Ritter has read the issue and has no comment
2020-10-21
Felix Loreto has read the issue and has no comment
2020-10-22
James Timothy has read the issue and has no comment
2020-10-24
Geoffrey Kee has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee is not voting at this time
2020-10-26
Candido Moz comments: I need yours vote on this, please do so
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2020-10-26
Richard Carlson comments: Yes
2020-10-26
Gill Hill comments: It is not really my place to comment, but when critical requirements for a record are missing, it is for me very difficult to approve the record.  Sorry to say it has happened before and will happen again.   But, the rules are there for a reason. 
2020-10-26
Larry Gisler comments: Is hard to punish a skier , I think a new review panel need decide the gates from the boat camera
The homologator and Chief Judge need receive a warning, for sent a record paper with out the information 
I vote yes


Larry Gisler votes YES
2020-10-27
Manon Costard comments: Firstly, I believe Jaimee deserves this U21 world record. She skied the score and according to the driving data and the boat camera, it seems entirely legit. It would be extremely unfair to her if it was not given as her performance was there.

My opinion set aside, as a necessary reminder, here is what our rulebook says: (emphasis mine)

\"23.12: Record Forms and Criteria
a) Slalom. Boat video, GATE VIDEO, and end-course video will be as per the rules requirements. The event judges will examine the video for compliance to the Rules. The videos will be sent with the record forms to the chairman of the World Waterski Council.\"
\"23.13: Record administration
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES will a record application be considered unless the appropriate record application forms are completed, and all rules conformed to within the stated time limits of one week (7 days).\"

One might think that we unfortunately must follow our rulebook. 

However, the last time a women slalom world record was judged, it was apparently acceptable to make an exception to our most basic slalom rule. From the rule book:

\"8.08: A Miss or \"Riding Over\"
a) Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy, or to RIDE OVER, STRADDLE, OR JUMP A TURN BUOY.
There is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. RIDING OVER SHALL BE DEFINED AS HITTING A TURN BUOY WITH THE SKI SO AS TO MOVE IT SIGNIFICANTLY FROM ITS POSITION OR TEMPORARILY SINK IT. Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing.\"

So here we are, because of a precedent set a year ago, trying to decide if we should go against our rulebook or not. I do not feel it is my place to vote on this issue but I will make a point out of expressing my extreme frustration with our processes and our responses to clear mistakes. 

To be clear, either way this will go, it will cause a critical problem. If you decide to go with the rulebook, a record would be taken away from a skier who has legitimately skied the score while a record was recently given to someone who had MISSED A BUOY. If you decide to give the record, you go against your own rules and show that they (and the federation) can be stepped on when convenient.

On another note, the .mpg file format is outdated and hard to open. Could we agree on a .mp4 or .mov format with a specific frames per second standard (ie. 60 fps or more) so that the videos can be played directly from the drive, frame by frame if necessary? We know that last year a lot of us didn\'t take the time to open the file to check the videos of the record being judged. If we now have to download each video to have a look at it, the issue will only get worse. 
Manon Costard is not voting at this time
2020-10-27
Corey Vaughn comments: Well said, Manon. 
2020-10-27
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: In principle i agree with Manon, but I would like to see the boat video that was used to define the entry gates.
Dimos Alexopoulos is not voting at this time
2020-10-27
Stian Lilleberg comments: Manon points out some very important issues here.
2020-10-27
Stian Lilleberg comments: Manon points out some very important issues here.
2020-10-27
Jose Antonio Perez Priego comments: A few quick comments: 
1. Regina\'s record is perfectly valid and we have the original video directly from the boat GoPro Camera that proves it. for technical reasons, the video on Bob\'s archives was downgraded to a lower resolution. I have no question in my mind that said record is valid. Candido has this video and is for anyone to see.
2. How is it possible that the officials at the tournament had no video for 20 min. and they did not notice when is their responsibility to judge gates from the video according to the configuration that homologator decided to use. quote \"I finally found where it should have been. I can see Jamie skiing back towards the starting dock after her 41 off pass & hear the judges on that tower saying they didn’t notice that the camera was not on. There is about a 20 min gap in the video & that is where Jamie skied.\"
3. Whatever decision you as a council make, IWWF will support. I am tired that we get blamed for someone else\'s mistakes. If you don\'t grant this record then the skier and the community need to be well advised that the record was not granted because the technical officials appointed did not provide the support materials per the rules and this has nothing to do with IWWF.
in this case, the buck stops with the Homologator and the Chief Judge.


2020-10-28
Corey Vaughn comments: First of all, Jaimee definitely deserves this record. I was at the Hilltop event, when she broke it and everything was being run to the highest of standards. I\'m not sure what happened with the video, but her performance was solid and deserving of the record. Furthermore, I know she has run this score at record tournaments since this one, so I suppose those could be reviewed and validated. In fact, she ran 2@10.25 a couple of weeks ago, to break this record, so I presume we will be receiving that record for review soon as well. I think we should endorse and approve this record.

I don\'t mean to jump into the conversation with the intention of being controversial or disagreeable but I really find the statement \"Regina\'s record is perfectly valid\" to be quite an overstatement.  I have the official video from the boat in full resolution and in frame by frame slow motion. I made sure to watch it again just before replying to this thread to make sure I correctly remembered what I had seen. According to our rule (8.08), which Manon included in her comments, I can\'t see how Regina was scored 4.5 at 10.25. I think she could have gotten a quarter buoy if she fully extended, so that the ski went outside the buoy without sinking it and took the fall. By trying for the full buoy or half buoy, she clearly ran over the buoy. She sunk/displaced the buoy and as her feet go past the buoy, it clearly pushes the buoy outside the ski or fully underwater. 

I can\'t say how important public opinion is on this matter, but everyone (primarily other pro skiers) who I have talked to that has seen this video agrees that she should not have been granted the half buoy and that the score should have been 4. At a minimum it diminishes our standards and credibility and taints the perception of this world record and of world records in general. 

I am the first person to say that judgement calls should be made in favor of the skier. In this case, however, with frame by frame video available for the decision about a World Record (the greatest accomplishment in the sport), somehow the wrong decision was made and an invalid record has been awarded. As potentially the most accomplished and decorated athlete in the sport\'s history, frankly, I find it disappointing that Regina wants this record to stand as it is. 

I don\'t know what can be done about it at this point, but it is certainly a lesson to all of us to take great care and attention when reviewing these matters. Thus, to echo Manon, we are in a pickle. We have awarded a record that should not have been awarded and now have a legitimate record that is difficult to stand behind due to a technical complication. I think if the video from the boat makes it clear that Jaimee made her gates, we have grounds to approve her record. 

In my mind there is no doubt that Jaimee deserves the 1@41 record and more tournaments have proved that. I think we should use a rigorous standard when reviewing Jaimee\'s upcoming record submission of 2@41. If something is amiss, as with Regina\'s record, I\'m afraid we will have to be the bad guys and deny the record. If, everything is within the rules, it will be great to award this record to Jaimee. 
2020-10-28
Christophe Duverger comments: for sure Jaime Bull is well capable of doing 1 at 41, but this time obviously some vidéo was missing...it is hard , it is not her fault, but we should stay with the rules and not approve that record...if we cannot find the missing video....
i remember a few year ago jaime Beauchesne skied a world record in Lacanau, he ran into 9.75 (1 or 2 maybe) the record was not approved because the juge didn\'t record his 10.75 (39 off) the 11.25 (38 off) and 10.25 (41 off) were good!
so why not do the same this time???? what is the issue??? can\'t we follow the rules now theses days?
sorry for Jaimee.....but it is not against her...
Christophe Duverger votes NO
2020-10-28
James Timothy comments: Some of you will know that I am relatively new to the world of officialdom in our sport and so I am contributing to this discussion with some trepidation. But maybe this allows me to add a voice which is unencumbered by history or past associations.

As I see it, the sole purpose of a record review committee is to decide whether or not an athlete achieved a stated level of performance under properly homologated conditions. 

If the rules are framed in such a way that, even though the committee members are certain that the athlete achieved that performance but are unable to ratify that decision because of a technicality, then surely the problem must be in the wording of the rule. Of course the judging team is partly responsible in this case in that the loss of the camera was not noticed for 20 minutes despite it being a camera that is supposed to be continually monitored, but what if the camera had failed only seconds before the gates were entered? These things do happen with no-one really at fault and the rule has no provision for that even though in this case the gates could be verified from the camera in the boat. The result of all this is that the rule appears to force the committee to come to an \"incorrect\" decision in that it does not reflect whether the skier actually achieved the stated performance or not.

I know this doesn\'t really help in coming to a decision on this but, for what it is worth, legal history has many examples of judges who applied the spirit of the law rather than the letter. Of course this leads to precedent which in itself is a very dangerous thing and can easily lead to unintended consequences. We are maybe fortunate that Jaimee has probably already surpassed this performance, but if this were not the case, then I would be in favour of a Yes to the record with a view to amending the rule so that this situation does not arise again.
2020-10-29
Candido Moz comments: Hi all, this is not the place to make controversy. 
Opening a door on the past will not help to make a decision but will only create more animosity.

We are only talking about Jamie pending record, and what to do with it.
The rule on record is clear, gate videos are part of the necessary documents.

The only thing we may considered is if the boat video is good enough to Judge the gates. 
Extract from our rulebook:

Gate camera
If it is not feasible to place the slalom judging towers ……………….
The signal will be recorded so that review is possible. A pole mounted boat camera may be used in conjunction with normal gate cameras to get a view that allows the most accurate result.


All videos and papers can be find at: 
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiBKQXxbqN60hbljWByIL_s-kE9YWg?e=aaujiP
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2020-10-29
Ryan Dodd comments: This is a very tough situation.
Everyone has great points so far, and we have some grey area for sure.
To be clear, the major decision here is if we can approve a record with a boat video of the gates?
And everything else looks good?
Can someone send just the link to the boat video? I can\'t seem to upload it?
Thanks
Ryan Dodd is not voting at this time
2020-10-29
James Timothy comments: Unfortunately, the video in the posted folder is MPEG 2 format which many video players do not support. Windows Media Player will play it but you have to install the MPEG 2 codec update. The players that are good for frame by frame such as QuickTime Player for Windows do not have the MPEG 2 codec. You can get a codec for the Mac version but not the latest version. If anyone has a good format converter it would be very useful!
2020-10-29
Glen Williams comments: I had not been able to see the video until today. It is clear to me that Jamie went through the entrance gates . As Candido pointed out If you read the rule under Gate Camera it does state that the boat camera can be used in conjunction with gate cameras to get the most accurate result . 
I believe we are following the rules by approving this record . 
Glen Williams votes YES
2020-11-01
Candido Moz comments: I need your vote.
Candido Moz votes YES
2020-11-01
Geoffrey Kee comments: I have not been able to view the videos.
Geoffrey Kee abstains
2020-11-01
James Timothy comments: If anyone is having difficulties viewing the boat videos, I have converted them to mp4 format. Let me know whether it is appropriate to upload them.
2020-11-07
Candido Moz comments: I\'m missing some votes please if you didn\'t vote yet do it.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2020-11-07
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: I think that Ryan has said the correct thing. I quote \"To be clear, the major decision here is if we can approve a record with a boat video of the gates?\"
If we agree on this proposal, then I will vote Yes.
If we cannot judge the entry gates from the boat, then due to the missing video unfortunately I vote No
So please Candido can you ask everybody to answer on Ryans question
Dimos Alexopoulos is not voting at this time
2020-11-11
Candido Moz comments: The ITEMS questions is exactly what Ryan and Dimos have requested.
Record review panel has approve the score, we need to decide if, as one of the gate video are missing, we can approve a record using the boat camera to Judge that specific gate.
I will like to have your vote as soon as possible.

As PANAM has change his memmbers, and the items where posted before I will like to have the votes of the previous members and the votes of the actual members.
Missing Votes:
Bob Corson
Sergio Font
Dimos ALexopoulos
Robert Ritter
Dana Garcia
Manon Costartd
Ryan Dodd

Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2020-11-11
Ryan Dodd comments: Yes
Ryan Dodd votes YES
2020-11-11
Dana Garcia comments: Based on the following: Data from record application-good, boat path from 11.25 thru 10.25 is good, entrance gate at 41 is good from boat view. Finally the rule book 8.13 does allow the judgement of gates from the boat camera. With that said, Jaimie deserves the record.
Dana Garcia votes YES
2020-11-11
Sergio Font comments: Yes
2020-11-11
Bob Corson comments: gate is visible to judge properly from the boat video and the gate is good therefore it should be approved
2020-11-11
Sergio Font comments: Yes
2020-11-11
Robert Ritter has read the issue and has no comment
Robert Ritter votes YES
2020-11-11
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: ok for me
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
2020-11-12
Christophe Duverger comments: i change my vote for a YES if all this leads to a change of the rule in the rules book....for something like:  the entrance gate can be juge by either the gate video or the boat video to give a clear view of where the skier is going....
Christophe Duverger votes YES
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Ricardo Botas - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - voted Yes
Robert Ritter - voted Yes
Felix Loreto - Commented
James Timothy - Commented
Richard Carlson - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Larry Gisler - voted Yes
Corey Vaughn - Commented
Stian Lilleberg - Commented
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Christophe Duverger - voted Yes
Glen Williams - voted Yes
Candido Moz - voted Yes
Geoffrey Kee - Abstained
Ryan Dodd - voted Yes
Dana Garcia - voted Yes
Sergio Font - Commented
Bob Corson - Commented
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted Yes
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Jeffry Armstrong
Robin Wright
Jacinta Carroll*
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah
Javier Julio
Nigel Talamo
Wayne Briant
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Georgi Renosto
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*