IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 628
Allow 45+ Women to choose their max speed and score by buoy count
Date Opened 2020-01-23
Date Closed 2020-02-10
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Here is the issue


There has been discussion on this issue and Candido decided to put  it up in a voting topic.
This allows each skier to ski at the maximum speed she feels OK with and still post competitive scores on the ranking list.
Over the years of slalom rule changes, it has always been to give the skier more options and choice and this is in line with that.
This system is used with strong success in the US.

Vote Yes to accept this proposal
Vote No to reject it
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2020-01-23
Bruce Cockburn comments: While in princple I support this I would like to know how we will score the different speeds 
1 will a score at the 55k be worth 6 bouys more that the same score at 52k
or 
2 will it be just on rope lengththat is a score of 3at12m 52k beats a score of 2.5at12m 55k
when I know how we will score the differenr speeds I will then vote
Bruce Cockburn is not voting at this time
2020-01-23
Bob Corson comments: 45+ scoring chart								
								
	18.25	16	14.25	13	12	11.25	10.75	10.25
55	18	24	30	36	42	48	54	60
52	12	18	24	30	36	42	48	54
49	6	12	18	24	30	36	42	48

Here is the scoring chart so basically it is your statement #1 a score at 55 is 6 more than at 52 for the same line length.  A skier can start anywhere on the chart and after a complete pass either go shorter in line or faster in speed.  The final score will be at the speed of the last complete pass.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2020-01-23
Bruce Cockburn comments: At the moment I do not think I would support this with that scoring method my problem with that scoring method is it is difficult to tell from the shore who wins the event I like to keep it simple the skier who runs the most bouys at a line length wins the event
I know skiing at a faster speed is harder but I do not belive it is 6 bouys harder

Bruce Cockburn is not voting at this time
2020-01-24
Christophe Duverger comments: just a question, because i miss some informations on that rule,
does it means that a skier can run 11m25 at 49 k and then go to 52 k to run again 11m25 and then go to 55k to run 11m25 again??? before he short the line to 10M75???


2020-01-24
Bob Corson comments: Christophe, that is correct except that you referred to \"he\" when we are only discussing 45+ women.  However, if it were broadly applied, that would be correct even though I do not believe we see that scenario in the US. 
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2020-01-25
Ricardo Botas has read the issue and has no comment
2020-01-26
Larry Gisler comments: I support the scoring system for the next 2 years, as a try , 52 k and 55k with 6 buoys different.
 I still thinking , safety is more important that any thing else .

Larry Gisler is not voting at this time
2020-01-27
Candido Moz comments: I support the scoring system that Bob propose up to our next meeting. 
45+ ladies has the options to short at 52 or 55 with 6 buoys different.

Candido Moz votes YES
2020-01-27
Nigel Talamo comments: Christophe has described how this could be confusing for spectators but I support the proposal as it will get us out of jail until the next meeting. 
Nigel Talamo votes YES
2020-01-27
Bob Corson comments: this is the best way forward
Bob Corson votes YES
2020-01-27
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I like the way Nigel put it...….\'to get out of jail\'.  A worry I have is that there are male athletes that are going to want the same thing and other divisions, if allowing this for 45+ female only.  This is one of the reasons USA started this Zero Based Scoring.  Food for thought.
2020-01-28
Geoffrey Kee has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee votes YES
2020-01-28
Glen Williams comments: I do not like the optional speed idea for over 45s or any division . It is way to confusing for spectators and also I’m not sure there is a 6 bouy difference or how you figure out accurately what the difference should be . 
I would of preferred to just have over 35s at 55 over 45s at 52 and let the skiers decide what age group they wish to ski in . 

Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2020-01-28
Bruce Cockburn comments: I agree with Glen I think a better solution is to remove the upper limit on Over 35 Women\'s so any one who wants to ski at 55 can ski O35W instead of O45W
Bruce Cockburn votes NO
2020-01-28
Corey Vaughn comments: Just a comment from the USA where this scoring system has been adopted and used for the past couple of years... It really is not confusing to spectators. The concept of either speeding up or shortening the rope to gain the next six buoys is as simple and straight forward as it gets. It is also always perfectly fair, as the skier has the choice to do what they are most comfortable with. Therefore, it does not matter if 12 meters at 55k is the same as 11.25m at 52k - the skier has the choice and can do whatever is better for them. The fact that it opens the door for an element of strategy is actually really cool. 

Without a doubt this scoring system has lead to more skiers doing tournaments in my area.
2020-01-28
Felix Loreto comments: Was the chart shown calculated with some formula which accounts for dynamic movement? Difficulty degree is achieved by the efforts realized in a pendular movement while being pulled by a moving object.
If not I just cannot see how can an exact \"zero\" buoy difference be decided when increasing the rope length to next take off loop and lowering the boat speed 3kph at the same time.
Of course, this chart could benefit or not the skiers in the middle but never the top skiers.
2020-01-28
Bob Corson comments: Having skiers ski in a division not consistent with their YOB would mean a rewrite of the ranking list software.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2020-01-29
Wayne Briant comments: I agree with Bruce and Glenn. The Divisions need to be open at top age. Then Women can choose to ski in 35+ if they wish to ski at 55kph. 
I think we are listening to the ones closer the the 45 age group that want to have it stay at 55kph. I am sure we realize the aging difference between a 45 year old and a 54 year old. 
What we need to remember is we are trying to keep the 50 to 54 year old in the sport and allow them to be competitive. I think we would take a huge backward step to revert back to 55kph and this is not managing the sport but rather listen to those that make the most noise. 
We are about participation and safety. With that in mind we need to step up and stand by your decision from the World titles. 
2020-01-29
Glen Williams has read the issue and has no comment
Glen Williams votes NO
2020-02-01
Candido Moz comments: This issue needs to be resolved imminently as the Northern hemisphere season is about to start. Meanwhile the Southern hemisphere is mid-season so any decision must be regarded as a temporary measure until we can clear the air with the 45+ skiers and devise a robust solution. The issue has been discussed on this forum and also enthusiastically within the E&A Waterski Council. This is what I propose:
For the remainder of the Southern season and for the forthcoming Northern season, 45+ Ladies skiers will be able to select, before the first pass, to shorten at either 52 or 55 kph. Score will be made on buoy count.
Please vote now.
Candido
Candido Moz votes YES
2020-02-01
Nigel Talamo has read the issue and has no comment
Nigel Talamo votes YES
2020-02-01
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: Yes
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
2020-02-01
Ricardo Botas has read the issue and has no comment
2020-02-02
Stian Lilleberg has read the issue and has no comment
2020-02-02
Larry Gisler comments: I think buoys account is the solution as a test for next year include worlds in France , but safety need be more important that anything else for any rule

Larry Gisler is not voting at this time
2020-02-03
Corey Vaughn comments: What is the purpose of making the skier elect their speed before starting the run? That works okay if the skier has a decided preference. However, some skiers may want to experience the conditions (headwind/tailwind or boat/driver) before determining which pass they feel they have a better chance of running.  Making the skier select a speed first is okay, but it is just one more complication.  Allowing the skier to chose between a shorter rope or a faster speed to score the next six buoys is the most simple and straight forward system.  It is also more exciting as the announcer to wait for the call by radio to state whether the skier has elected to shorten or speed up. It gives you something to talk about and allows announcer and spectator to speculate about what is in the mind of the skier. Keep it simple, just stick with the buoy counting. 
2020-02-04
Candido Moz comments: It\'s ok for me,
skier to chose between a shorter rope or a faster speed to score the next six buoys.

Candido Moz votes YES
2020-02-04
Larry Gisler comments: yes 
Larry Gisler votes YES
2020-02-04
Sergio Font comments: Yes
Sergio Font votes YES
2020-02-06
James Timothy has read the issue and has no comment
2020-02-06
Robert Ritter has read the issue and has no comment
2020-02-11
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2020-02-11
Manon Costard comments: While this option of picking the speed can be fair to all skiers, I personally do not believe it is the way to go for people to understand our sport during tournaments ( whether we are talking about a class L or a world championship ). 

As we already are mid season for some of us, I think this speed selection rule should be followed for the entire season as a test but we must organise a serious vote amongst 45+ women, give them options to vote for and keep the rule wanted by the majority for next year. 
To me the options that make sense are: 
45+: mandatory 55k 
45+: mandatory 52k 
35+: option to ski in the younger age category to compete at the speed they wish.
45+: pick the speed between 55 and 52. 

We must put together a more specific process for such rule changes and not let them go through unless we have true data and a clear vote from a specific and high amount of directly concerned skiers. 

Therefore my vote is YES to a test of this rule for this season as long as we properly handle this issue at the end of the 2020 season by organising a serious vote amongst 45+ women skiers. 
Manon Costard votes YES
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Christophe Duverger - Commented
Ricardo Botas - Commented
Candido Moz - voted Yes
Nigel Talamo - voted Yes
Bob Corson - voted Yes
Jeffry Armstrong - Commented
Geoffrey Kee - voted Yes
Bruce Cockburn - voted No
Corey Vaughn - Commented
Felix Loreto - Commented
Wayne Briant - Commented
Glen Williams - voted No
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted Yes
Stian Lilleberg - Commented
Larry Gisler - voted Yes
Sergio Font - voted Yes
James Timothy - Commented
Robert Ritter - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Manon Costard - voted Yes
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Gill Hill
Robin Wright
Jose Antonio Perez Priego
Jacinta Carroll*
Ryan Dodd*
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah
Javier Julio
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*