IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 612
Ladies 45+ Slalom shortening speed
Date Opened 2019-11-19
Date Closed 2020-01-20
See all other issues
Here is the issue

I received from Nigel this email, please comment:

Dear Candido,
As one of the E&A WTC members, I have received considerable concern from E&A senior skiers who do not agree with the decision to lower the 45+ shortening speed from 55 to 52. None of them were consulted about the proposal and they feel that this decision does nothing to improve their sport.
I have also heard from a representative from skiers in the United States who agree with the E&A skiers. 
When we voted approval we were under the impression that this was a recommendation from the 45+ skiers. As this no longer appears to be the case, can I ask that this decision be re-considered.
I believe that you have received the same correspondence as I have.
Nigel Talamo

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2019-11-19
Nigel Talamo has read the issue and has no comment
2019-11-19
Robert Ritter has read the issue and has no comment
2019-11-19
Bob Corson comments: Skiers in the US opposed this change.  The original poll of skiers from the 35+ Worlds showed a mixed result with no clear mandate for a change.  I believe we should go back to 55.  Further, I believe that we should consider the US method of scoring that allows skiers to ski at less than max speed and still score just based on buoy count so that if a skier wants to ski at lower than max for whatever reason, they can still be competitive and be on the ranking list.
2019-11-19
Corey Vaughn comments: I have no comment about the 45+ Women\'s speed. I would rather that women and maybe folks closer to the age of 45 inform that change.

When it comes to \"Zero Based Scoring\" which is the term being used in the US to describe the scoring system in which the skier can choose between shortening the rope or speeding up to score the next six buoys or add to their buoy count, I am strongly in favor of seeing this adopted more broadly.  As a ski school owner/operator I have seen the joy, relief and excitement that this change has brought to skiers of all ages, abilities and sexes.  Men, Women, Boys and Girls are benefitting from this change and are actually improving more rapidly by varying their training, rather than always attempting maximum speed with long rope.  There is no question that this scoring system has lead to an increase in tournament participation and enjoyment in my region.  

The fact that a skier can employ strategy makes it more interesting for spectators. For example, a skier may elect to ski 16m 52k in a tailwind rather than 18.25m 55k. It couldn\'t be more simple or fair in concept - the skier can either speed up or shorten the rope to add buoys to his/her score.  Perhaps the speed vs. shortening is not exactly equal in difficulty as skiers progress to high levels (11.25m, 10.75m, 10.25m) but skiers at this level can be expected to know what speed and line length will help them achieve their highest buoy count and ski accordingly.

\"ZBS\" has been the most positive rule change that I am aware of in the last decade in the USA. I strongly encourage the International Federation to consider adopting it.  
2019-11-19
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2019-11-19
Bruce Cockburn comments: I strongly support the over 45 women shorthing at 52k we should not change the decision because some skiers do not like the decision if we go back to 55k some skiers will not like the decision
what I would like is to remove the age restriction so an over 45 women who wants to compete at 55k can compete in over 35 women  allow scores at both 52 and 55 on the ranking list
I am not in favour of the ZBS scoring system 
2019-11-19
Larry Gisler comments: Hello Many of the \"new \"senior skier s and over 50 years old there are happy with the change.

2019-11-19
Jacinta Carroll comments: I 100% agree with Bruce. You will never please everyone. Remove the restriction and allow the ones who want to ski at 55km to ski in over 35s not over 45s...I 100% agree with Bruce. You will never please everyone. Remove the restriction and allow the ones who want to ski at 55km to ski in over 35s not over 45s....however the women who want 52 if you take it back to 55km cannot ski over 55s.
Please consider the change in age restriction. This is a much more viable option.
Also safety must be a considering given the hormone changes over women in this over 45bracket - this is not something to take lightly.
I am also NOT in favour of the ZB point scoring. Too complicated for spectators to understand and we already struggle as it is to make our sport appealing to the general population..however the women who want 52 if you take it back to 55km cannot ski over 55s.
Please consider the change in age restriction. This is a much more viable option.
Also safety must be a considering given the hormone changes over women in this over 45bracket - this is not something to take lightly.
I am also NOT in favour of the ZB point scoring. Too complicated for spectators to understand and we already struggle as it is to make our sport appealing to the general population.
2019-11-20
Christophe Duverger comments: keep the 55k for +45....a man is very strong at 45 years old...there are no needs to ski at 52k...for me 35+ should ski at 58k ....the women  35+ continue to ski at 55k the maximum speed!!!... why men 35+ should drop there speed from 58k to 55k???? 
2019-11-20
Geoffrey Kee has read the issue and has no comment
2019-11-24
Glen Williams comments: I am not in favour of the zero based system as I think it is to confusing for spectators . It may work in private tournaments but I can’t imagine trying to explain what is happening to an uneducated crowd at say Moomba . 
If going to ZB , I would only be in favour for senior divisions never open or juniors . 
When we were voting for speed reduction for over 45s I thought we had accurate feed back from skiers and also that it brought some equality between men and women . Men get a slower speed as they age so why don’t women??
Maybe we didn’t poll enough skiers however if we change back again I’m sure there will be complaints from those that wanted reduction . 

2019-11-27
Richard Carlson has read the issue and has no comment
2019-12-02
Ricardo Botas has read the issue and has no comment
2019-12-05
Stian Lilleberg has read the issue and has no comment
2019-12-09
Gill Hill has read the issue and has no comment
2019-12-30
Bob Corson comments: Candido re-opened this issue and now requires a vote.
Yes means revert to 55k
No means to stay at 52k
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2019-12-30
Larry Gisler comments: no
Larry Gisler votes NO
2019-12-30
Bruce Cockburn has read the issue and has no comment
Bruce Cockburn votes NO
2019-12-30
Jacinta Carroll comments: NO!
2019-12-31
Bob Corson comments: I think we should have the maximum speed at 55 but allow the 35+ divisions to have the option to start at the speed and rope length they want (the current rule) and either increase the speed OR shorten the rope after a successful pass (now they can only increase the speed if not at maximum).  I think that is a way to meet the stated needs of the different groups of skiers who either want 52k or want 55k.
Bob Corson votes YES
2020-01-07
Manon Costard comments: I believe we need to do a better job at getting data from skiers. It definitely sounded like there had been a serious survey among the +35 and +45 skiers and that we were going with the majority. If it is the case, we should not go back on our first decision to lower the speed. However, if we believe +35 and +45 women\'s opinion was not properly taken into account, we cannot vote to put the speed back up before asking the skiers concerned by this decision whether they want to ski at 52 or 55k. 

That being said, I do like the idea of opening +35 category to older skiers who want to keep competing at 55k. 
Manon Costard is not voting at this time
2020-01-08
Glen Williams has read the issue and has no comment
Glen Williams votes NO
2020-01-13
Bob Corson comments: Candido extended the closing date to Jan 20.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2020-01-13
Gill Hill has read the issue and has no comment
2020-01-14
Candido Moz comments: We need to conclude on this. Please comment and vote.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2020-01-14
Jose Antonio Perez Priego comments: I am in favor of opening the age division for seniors it makes no sense to have open junior divisions ie. Under 21 but limit the age to closed groups for seniors. At the Panam and Latin Championships the Senior age division are open so a 48 year skier can ski against the 35 year skiers. This allows for more interesting competitions.

Regarding the skier poll, I asked Bob to create an online survey and publicize it at the over 35 in Chile. He did so, in hindsight the questions should have been different. I am very surprised that none of the voting members asked to see the survey. Bob please share with voting members the survey and results so each one can decide if it’s relevant or not.
Lastly I had a lot of input from senior women skiers about this change, most of the top 10 ranked senior skiers are dead set against the change, low end national skiers favor the change, especially those that started skiing late, as seniors that have never skied at 55 anyway, this group is mostly skiing because their husbands / boyfriends or sons / daughters encourage them to start. Here we need to decide what is the role of IWWF, do we want to encourage grass roots skiers to join or do we need to cater to the top echelon of our sport. I believe our role is the latter.
Grass roots are the responsibility of national federations. My advise would be to go back to 55 for over 45 women’s category and open all senior categories men and women like the junior categories 
2020-01-17
Candido Moz comments: During this time I have received so many emails about it that I have changed my mind.
So I will vote to going back to 55 and make a new full survey before changing it.

As we have to conclude this item, please who didn\'t do it, submit your vote. 
Candido Moz votes YES
2020-01-17
Nigel Talamo comments: The affected women should be properly polled before setting this in stone but in the meantime I vote Yes because that is what all the correspondence I have received indicates.
Nigel Talamo votes YES
2020-01-17
Bob Corson comments: The survey and comments were shown in issue 585 and there was discussion in issue 580
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2020-01-17
Sergio Font comments: yes
Sergio Font is not voting at this time
2020-01-17
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: yes
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
2020-01-17
Bruce Cockburn comments: I am very disapointed that we have made ourselves look like fools by going back to 55k for O45W
the main reason we made the change was because of safty for a 54 year old Women who is forced to ski at 55k how are we going to solve this problem

we are now because we are trying to please a few skiers going to lose a lot of skiers who do not want to ski at 55k

we could have taken off the upper age restriction and all skiers could have skied at the speed they wanted to
I think this is a very bad decision 




Bruce Cockburn is not voting at this time
2020-01-17
Geoffrey Kee comments: Skiers in Asia would prefer to lower the ladies 45+ shortening speed from 55 to 52.
Geoffrey Kee votes NO
2020-01-17
Bruce Cockburn comments: I belive this is such a desputed decision we should allow both speeds for this year Australia will not be able to change back to 55k before the end of our season
If we go back to 55k this rule would not come into effect for 60 days after the rule change is published which will be the end of our season
this will affect our skiers on the ranking lists because they will be sking at 52k

I propose that we allow both 52k and 55k to be used for next 35 worlds
and for the ranking lists
Bruce Cockburn is not voting at this time
2020-01-17
Christophe Duverger comments: Keep 55k for +45 men
2020-01-18
Bob Corson comments: The 52k list is already in place as well as  the 55k list.
I still think we should consider letting each skier decide on their maximum speed and score by buoy count.  This has been very successful in the USA which certainly encompasses a large number of skiers in the senior divisions.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2020-01-18
Ricardo Botas has read the issue and has no comment
2020-01-19
Candido Moz comments: I agree 52 and 55 as skier wish and use the buoys count.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2020-01-20
Sergio Font comments: yes
Sergio Font votes YES
2020-01-20
Glen Williams comments: This whole exercise has been a woeful debacle , to vote one way in August then another in January is very unprofessional . 
In NZ we have skiers who have skied at 52kph to start preparing for senior worlds since September . They will have to stay there for the rest of our season now as we have changed our national rules then it will be too cold to train at 55kph 
Glen Williams is not voting at this time
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Nigel Talamo - voted Yes
Robert Ritter - Commented
Bob Corson - voted Yes
Corey Vaughn - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - voted No
Larry Gisler - voted No
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Christophe Duverger - Commented
Geoffrey Kee - voted No
Glen Williams - voted No
Richard Carlson - Commented
Ricardo Botas - Commented
Stian Lilleberg - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Candido Moz - voted Yes
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted Yes
Sergio Font - voted Yes
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Jeffry Armstrong
Robin Wright
Ryan Dodd*
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah
Javier Julio
Felix Loreto
Wayne Briant
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*