IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 604
Patricio Font Record 11580 at the U21 Worlds
Date Opened 2019-09-03
Date Closed 2019-10-15
See all other issues
Here is the issue

After several requests, Candido has received 2 set of videos:
The first two videos are in  .MOV   format, in really low quality and one of them is jerky with missing frames
The second two videos are in .mp4  format, converted from the DVR.
Finding the original videos has been impossible, even the streaming people don't have them any more.
From the videos above, the TB is out of time (no record).

Recently Sergio has provided Candido with a couple of videos, recorded during the tournament with his iPhone, in which the TB is clearly in time.

Now the question is: since no original video has been found, can we use Sergio's videos (not official videos) for time purposes or not? 

Vote YES to allow - NO to not allow

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2019-09-05
Candido Moz comments: I know is a difficult task but we must decide what to do. Please comment and vote
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2019-09-05
Candido Moz comments: I know is a difficult task but we must decide what to do. Please comment and vote
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2019-09-05
Gill Hill has read the issue and has no comment
2019-09-05
Christophe Duverger comments: if the chief juge accept the vidéo ...? why not?
2019-09-05
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: The IWWF rules 10.11 and 15.17 (a) & (b) are still in use.
So, in order to make a decision I have some questions before the vote:
1. The first 2 videos that Candido found (.mov and .mp4) are these from the boat?
2. Did the Judges have a final and specific scoring and timing? and from which video?
2. The \"couple of videos that Sergio provided\" were taken from the boat during his run?

Dimos Alexopoulos is not voting at this time
2019-09-05
Nigel Talamo comments: I think it is opening a can of worms if we stray from using official video sources. If Sergio\'s cameraphone had been used for all the series and all timing was done using his footage, then fine but it was not. 
Nigel Talamo votes NO
2019-09-05
Ricardo Botas has read the issue and has no comment
2019-09-05
Larry Gisler comments: We are talking about a record, not the result of a tournament that is close.
If we don\'t have the oficial video from the boat , a organization problem, we can use the most occurrence video, that we can get, to measure the time .

Larry Gisler is not voting at this time
2019-09-09
Candido Moz comments: Hi all, to respond to some of your questions:
Sergio video is taken from his iPhone as he was in the boat as release person for Pato, and have not been there for the others.
During the tournament, there where a video-operator in the boat, his live feed was transmitted and posted on the streaming channel. No recording on the boat.
The transmitted videos where split up by the streaming company, and used for timing and tricks calling.
The video I got are a conversion of the file recorded on the DVR.
There where 2 Officials timing the pass and from their timing sheets the TB, which is the tricks in question, where in time.
The video taken by Sergio are from the boat.

I need your answer soon, we need to close this item.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2019-09-09
Larry Gisler comments: Is  posible during the conversion do de video longest ? Are the original videos isn 30 FPS?
Larry Gisler is not voting at this time
2019-09-09
Bruce Cockburn has read the issue and has no comment
Bruce Cockburn votes YES
2019-09-10
Candido Moz comments: Sergio video are not converted they are in the original format .MOV.
The one I got from the Homologator are converted from the DVR recorder.

Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2019-09-10
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I know I am not a part of the TC, but I have a comment in this case.
I see no way for the TC to be asked to decide on the official video.  I say this because of what is said in rule 10.11 and it actually names \'the record review process\". It doesn\'t give any rights to the TC to decide the official video to be used. It is specific as to who are the decision makers here. Please excuse me for commenting this time.
2019-09-11
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: Accepting at this time videos from any other source than the official one, will create a precedent and it will open the way (in the future) for a jury panel or a review panel to be obliged to accept any video from anybody (taken from the same angle as the \"official\" one) I don\'t agree on complicating more and more our sport. I disagree on using any other kind of video than the official one from the competition organisers.
Dimos Alexopoulos votes NO
2019-09-11
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: Just to add that this discussion has nothing to do with the extraordinary results of Patricio, but only about the technology that the review panel will use to determine the result..
Dimos Alexopoulos is not voting at this time
2019-09-11
Candido Moz comments: First of all, this is an IWWF sanction tournament and I don\'t understand how is it possible that we do not have the official videos.
I think we have to do all what it\'s in our possibility to solve the situation.

Anyway in rule 10:11 it states:
10.11: Video Specifications (2018)
Video to be used:
For Judging purposes and record review process, only video from the official cameras can be used.
The official camera may be any video from the same view (example from boat) as determined by the Homologator and Chief Judge.

In the second paragraph it state that: \"The official camera may be any video from the same view (example from boat) as determined by the Homologator and Chief Judge\"  

I will ask the Chief Judge and the Homologator if Sergio videos, have the same view as the one used in the competition, and if they agree that those videos can be consider as official.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2019-09-11
Glen Williams comments: I say yes as we have a video from the correct position. ( the boat ) and we are only confirming the time already checked by on site officials on the day .  
Glen Williams votes YES
2019-09-11
Glen Williams comments: I say yes as we have a video from the correct position. ( the boat ) and we are only confirming the time already checked by on site officials on the day .  
Glen Williams votes YES
2019-09-13
Geoffrey Kee has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee votes NO
2019-09-14
Ryan Dodd comments: Yes
Ryan Dodd votes YES
2019-09-14
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: I agree with Candidos proposal to ask the CJ and Homologator of the competition, if they agree that those videos can be considered as official (as per rule 10.11)
If they agree, then I will accept the issues proposal and change my vote to yes for their use for timing purposes.
Dimos Alexopoulos is not voting at this time
2019-09-14
Jacinta Carroll comments: Is there a frame rate difference between the 2 videos because that will ultimately decide if you can use it or not. If it is different to the tournament frame rate then it cant be used ?
Sorry I am not very good with technology.


2019-09-17
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2019-09-17
Larry Gisler comments: Yes if the chief judge and the homologator accept as oficial
Larry Gisler votes YES
2019-09-18
Bob Corson comments: I re-opened this issue as there is still some technical analysis that needs to be done on the submitted files.  Donal Connelly is working on one file and I will be comparing the two files with different frame rates (30 and 29.97) frame by frame to see if there is a generic problem.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2019-09-20
Candido Moz comments: Hi all, finally we have been able to fix the issue with the time frames. The timing have been verify by me, Bob and Donal and we are all confident that the TB is clearly in time.
I will send the invitation to the review panel for their call.
all the document can be find at the following link.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiBKQXxbqN60hbBAxnZI6vVKHC5U9g?e=mf3CGK

Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2019-09-23
Robert Ritter has read the issue and has no comment
2019-09-25
Bob Corson comments: I asked Candido for the latest file (Pato Font U21 You Tube Clip) of pass 1 to compare against the original submitted file (IMG_0831).  In the original file the TWB was judged to be OOC and in the newest one it was in time.
I compared the files frame by frame and they were identical.  There was a troubling technical issue.  Neither of these files were from the boat camera but a captured transmission. Looking at the original file, frame 45 was the definite start of the turn.  However, frames 43 and 44 were identical.  This is caused by buffer underrun which means that the process creating the file is saving a frame every 1/30th of a second from the video buffer.  if 1/30th of a second has passed and the complete next frame is not in the buffer, it will repeat the picture.  In this case, that means that the start could have been frame 44 but we will never know as the in boat camera video no longer exists.  At the end, frame 645 shows the binding on the water thus completing the trick.  Frames 644 and 643 are identical showing the ski not on the water under the binding.  However, frame 644 might have shown the ski on the water, but that frame is lost.  641 and 642 were also indentical.
This is showing a serious problem with the transmission methodology in this case.  This also means that the video timing must be judged from the boat camera clip unless the video transmission can be shown to be of sufficient speed and capacity so that frames are not dropped.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2019-09-25
Larry Gisler comments: Thanks Bob for the clarification , that mean that any request of re-timing need be do it from the boat video ?
Larry Gisler is not voting at this time
2019-09-27
Bob Corson comments: Bruce Cockburn says:
Bob
Ok but we don\'t have a check to see if that is happening so we need to add something in the rules so the quality of the transmission can be checked
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2019-09-27
Bob Corson comments: In a further development with video, I am analyzing videos from the AWSA boat test and have verified that if a video is saved on a security type DVR and then exported, the time is completely off.  I have a run at 52k that should be 17.93 but by frame count is in excess of 20 seconds.  I had heard that this was a problem.  We should realize that we definitely cannot use such outputs for timing.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2019-10-02
Bob Corson comments: Candido says:
Hi Bob, the review panel has approve the record.

Patricio Font Nelson

2019 IWWF U21 Worlds

Shalom Park, Alberta (CAN), 04 July 2019

1st round - 11510 points


all document are posted on: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AiBKQXxbqN60hbBAxnZI6vVKHC5U9g?e=4fSfvp

Please vote if you have not.  You can change your vote based on the new information

Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2019-10-02
Larry Gisler comments: I Approve the record
Larry Gisler votes YES
2019-10-03
Bruce Cockburn comments: I approve this record
Bruce Cockburn votes YES
2019-10-13
Candido Moz comments: Yes
Candido Moz votes YES
2019-10-13
Christophe Duverger comments: yes
2019-10-14
Bob Corson comments: yes
Bob Corson votes YES
2019-10-14
Sergio Font comments: Yes
Sergio Font votes YES
2019-10-15
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: yes
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Gill Hill - Commented
Christophe Duverger - Commented
Nigel Talamo - voted No
Ricardo Botas - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - voted Yes
Jeffry Armstrong - Commented
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted Yes
Glen Williams - voted Yes
Geoffrey Kee - voted No
Ryan Dodd - voted Yes
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Larry Gisler - voted Yes
Robert Ritter - Commented
Candido Moz - voted Yes
Bob Corson - voted Yes
Sergio Font - voted Yes
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Robin Wright
Jose Antonio Perez Priego
Stian Lilleberg
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah
Javier Julio
Felix Loreto
Wayne Briant
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*