IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 585
Athlete input
Date Opened 2019-02-15
Date Closed 2019-09-01
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Here is the issue


As you know I have put up a survey for 35+ skiers.  We are receiving some interesting comments.  You can read them with the results at:
http://www.iwsf.com/iwsftc/2019/2019showsurvey.php
in the survey 1 means keep current speed, 2 means use optional maximum.

Also we received additional comments from Hans Menzel
Geman Waterski Federation as follows in two letters:

thank you for the survey, I thought you are discussing additional age groups to keep it more fair for the older skiers. Why dont you incorporate that into this survey, so we dont have to do it again?
thanks
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the more I think about it I come to the following conclusion.

We have rules that are almost as bad as Formula One Racing. No outsider understands all that. Look at the way how wakeboarding is doing it.

We need to simplify. Rather than to make it more complicated.

If a skier can now opt for different speeds to ski, than you can not compare the result. 
Next step would be Men 35+ 58 group ski together,
than Men 35+ 55 group ski together, making it way more complicated for an outsider to understand. Or do you plan to give medals for each group. Also in INternational skiing we don not count buoys. that is a USA Waterski Only thing.
We go by 5@13m not by X buoys.



In Jump you already made the mistake by taken meters away form the 65+skiers, resulting in Overall points that are a joke. as I mentioned before 10m Ladies 65+ jump equals 50m jumps in men 35+ this is not fair at all.

If we now can choose different speeds in Slalom, why dont you change Jumping as well.
You than need to  reduce the meters a 35+ at max speed on a 1.65m ramp gets X meters deducted against a skier that goes 51 over a 1.5m jump.

Where will this end?

Guys please keep our sport simple. 

Create new age groups with new speeds. 
The older the lower the speed. 
If a skier feels fit, than he can opt to ski in a younger age group and he can ski at a faster speed.

thanks



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2019-02-16
Ricardo Botas has read the issue and has no comment
2019-02-17
Nigel Talamo has read the issue and has no comment
2019-02-17
Corey Vaughn comments: I don\'t have a strong feeling as to the outcome of this proposal. However, I do think that the most simple method is that the skier has a choice between speeding up or shortening the rope to gain 6 more buoys. I recognize that only the USA counts buoys rather than reporting a raw score, but that raw score could include a line length and a speed. That\'s no a complicated thing to understand, and is, in fact, fundamental to slalom skiing. 

I can understand why some skiers do not want to slow the boat down as they age up, and would like the option to continue to get credit for skiing faster. I can also understand why some skiers want to ski below maximum speed, but still be able to compete. 

To me it doesn\'t get any more simple than all skiers have the choice of speeding up or shortening to be scored on the next pass. In this arrangement, you wouldn\'t even need to set maximum speeds for men or women. I\'m quite confident that maximum speed would be self regulating. 
2019-02-19
Robert Ritter has read the issue and has no comment
2019-02-25
Gill Hill has read the issue and has no comment
2019-02-25
Bob Corson comments: Input from Mel Collins, AUS
Hi bob, 
Could you please forward my long email with questions  onto all relevant decision makers in regards to over 35/45 women’s speeds and new survey please.


1) Just to clarify the confusing survey recently sent out, instead of agreeing and lowering the over 35/45 women’s speed  to be in alignment and fair with the men, is it true that it appears in the new survey you are now offering the men another speed reduction as well ?

2) If the IWWF won’t reduce our speed from opens women’s to 52  , then simply why not put the men’s over 35/45 speed back up to open men’s speeds 58, .....then this will be fair .

3) if a woman wants to ski at 55, then she can elect to ski in an age group that’s accomodating to that speed .   I had to “learn “ 55 just to get a world ranking and be up for selection to go to over 35 worlds, as in Australia we used to ski at 52, but changed our rules to be in alignment with the rest of the world ,but this had been detrimental to our sport and its growth .

4) This new survey still does not give us any hope for fairness in our sport......how will ratings/rankings score, how will team selection go, how will records score and how will the volunteer judges cope ?

5) we are trying to grow the sport not hinder it...we are all not professional ex skiers that have been skiing all or lives , and majority of women stop skiing to have and raise families .

6) The upcoming rules for Oceania Championships Australia versus New Zealand is another perfect example of unfairness in our sport .
Open men ski 58.............over 35 men ski 55
Open women ski 55........over 35 women ski the same (55) 

7) The new proposal/survey  is totally confusing and I personally along with 99% of Australian women do not want to ski at 55...by our Australia calendar, I’ll be 3 months off turning 57 when I get to slow down to 52 ...do you all honestly think this is right ?

8) I’ve attached scores from our 2018 Australian nationals ...and this is the best of the best ...and myself and Lisa cavenah are both over 45 but elect to ski open.

So PLEASE IWWf...just be fair to us women and mirror what you did to the men and lower our speed when we get to 35 years old......all you have to agree on, is to drop our ladies speed just 1 click down from the boys/ men like you have done in EVERY OTHER AGE GROUP .
We just don’t understand why we’re getting penalised and have to ski open speed for 20 more years than the men ... yep 20 more years !! It’s just Not fair .

Yours sincerely and on behalf of the majority over 35/45 women’s 
Mel Collins 
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2019-02-25
Bruce Cockburn comments: I totaly agree with what Mel is saying Over 35 and Over 45 Women are the only age groups where men and Women are the same slalom speeds
to make it more unfair we do not let the Women Jump at the same speed as the men but expect them to slalom at the same speed
for me if we leave Over 35 and 45 Women\'s speeds at 55k the Men should go to 58k

I support lowering both Over 35 Women\'s and Over 45 Women\'s Slalom speeds to 52k

If we do not want to do that we should at least lower the Over 45 Women\'s speed and remove the upper age limit so skiers can ski in Over 35 if they want to ski at 55k

I do not support have a choice of speeds with a penalty
I think it will be to confusing 

We need to remember we need to make rules that benefit the entire sport not just a select few

2019-02-25
Jacinta Carroll comments: I 100% support Mel.
To be Frank, its an absolute joke that over 45 women ski the same speed as open, when over 45 men ski the same as open WOMEN not MEN!
Why the discrepancy ?
Does this mean O35/o45 jump speeds for women should increase as well?
The option to pick your speed I DO NOT AGREE WITH.
We struggle as a sport for simplistic enjoyable viewing. How add a speed option to increase the complexity is a positive I do not understand.
Also - to provide some physiologic reason and the effect this may have on womens health - during menopause bone mineral density dramatically decreases. Higher speeds, with a period of decreasing bone mineral density substantially increases the risk of early onset osteoarthritis and potential fractures. TO remain fair for men and women, and to protect safety I believe O35/O45 should ski at 52km.
Thanks
2019-02-26
Larry Gisler comments: Hello when a men do 35 he knows he need slow down the speed for slalom , you found resistance in the first few years after they used , why is not the same in woman ,  52 is more safe that 55 and for people who start skiing late it will be help 

2019-02-26
Corey Vaughn comments: I agree that it makes no sense for women to stay at \"Open Speed\" for a longer time than men. 

I know, however, it is the case that not all men want to decrease speed at age 35. Many are not qualified to ski open, so they have no choice but to slow down. I hear the same complaint about slowing down to 32 and 30 miles per hour from senior men.  I agree that most women that I ski with are very happy about decreasing speed at age 52.

In the US we have introduced the option to ski at whatever speed the skier desires. Overall, it has been extremely encouraging to skiers at different ages. I know women who are releived that they can slow down in speed before age 52 and get scored for shortening the line. I know others who choose to make their maximum speed 49k rather than 52k, simply because they feel safer. The rule allows men to do the same, which has been a major confidence boost for those who are more intermediate level skiers. Some who would usually not ski in tournaments are now choosing to do so, because they feel more confident, knowing they don\'t have to reach a certain speed first, or that they can start at 16m rather than 18m and still be scored fairly for the passes they run. Moreover, I know men who are happy that they don\'t have to slow down and can continue skiing at the speed they enjoy and be given credit for it.

The idea that this scoring system is more complex is simply a failure to see it for what it is, but rather to see it in contrast to what one is already used to. If you had to explain slalom scoring to someone who has never seen the sport, it is just as easy to say \"the skier can elect to speed up by 3km/hr OR shorten to the next rope length in order to score more buoys.\"  That is in no way more complicated than \"the skier must speed up to a maxiumum speed and then begin shortening the rope.\" The fact that it involves some personal choice, psychology and strategy, actually makes slalom MORE interesting to follow as a spectator, rather than everyone doing the exact same thing. 

I don\'t have a dog in this fight, but I have seen first hand a great deal of renewed enthusiasm for tournament skiing as a result of this scoring method and I have seen no downside. If you want to make the sport more accessible to more people, allowing for more personal choice is better than more restriction... 
2019-03-02
Christophe Duverger has read the issue and has no comment
2019-03-12
Stian Lilleberg has read the issue and has no comment
2019-04-06
Paul Fong has read the issue and has no comment
2019-04-16
Geoffrey Kee has read the issue and has no comment
Replied
Ricardo Botas - Commented
Nigel Talamo - Commented
Corey Vaughn - Commented
Robert Ritter - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Bob Corson - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - Commented
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Larry Gisler - Commented
Christophe Duverger - Commented
Stian Lilleberg - Commented
Paul Fong - Commented
Geoffrey Kee - Commented
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