IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 447
E&A FRONT FLIP RECOMMENDATION
Date Opened 2016-01-31
Date Closed 2019-09-01
See all other issues
Here is the issue


At the WTC meeting in November at Chapala, the front flip situation was considered and the proposal to have two variations of Front Flip, inside and outside was considered. 
 
Since Mexico, the E&A TC has held discussions with both judges and athletes. 
The outside front flip is clear and can be judged with accuracy and reliability.
However the inside front flip has many differing approaches to its performance. It can be extremely difficult for judges to determine a 'good one from a bad one'. Making this decision at an important tournament only adds to the pressure. 
Please look at the attacked examples.
(http://www.iwsf.com/iwsftc/2015/FlipSamples.jpg)
 
At this stage the E&A TC is not confident that there are enough judges who are able to reliably judge the many variations to the inside front flip. 
 
It is because of these reasons that the E&A TC would like to recommend to the World TC that commencing in 2017, an athlete performing a so called Inside Front Flip shall receive no credit for this trick. The traditional Outside Front Flip will continue to score. We further recommend that the definition of all variations of Front Flip and their performances, be re-written to improve clarity. 
 
Candido Moz
-----------------------------------------------------------
To clarify, approving this would change our decision in Mexico but now give us a clear direction.
Please comment and vote:
Thank you.

-------------------------------------------
2016-01-31
Felix Loreto has read the issue and has no comment
2016-02-01
Wayne Briant comments: I don\'t see that an athlete should be penalised because the lack of knowledge of judges. Both inside the line and outside the line front flips have been around for a number of years. I was at a tournament recently where an outside the line front flip was no where near credit.
I don\'t think simply calling inside the line no credit and outside the line credit rectifies the situation.
It is obvious that you can do either inside or outside the line credit and no credit.
I think that it far more important that we educate the judges to credit and no credit flips....
I am sure there was a consensus with the people that viewed the front flips applied that a number of them were non credit and should be judged as such.


2016-02-01
Gill Hill has read the issue and has no comment
2016-02-01
Bruce Cockburn comments: I support the E&A recommendation

Bruce Cockburn votes YES
2016-02-01
Jeffry Armstrong comments: This is exactly what I wanted at the meeting in Mexico and the reason I brought it up. I further
Always thought that we would not have a good solution with what we passed   I support doing away with the inside front flip. I don\'t see many at all that I think should be credit. 
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2016-02-02
Ryan Dodd comments: First of all my take on a front flip is if it looks like a front flip it is one. I don\'t think it matters on what side of the line, and I don\'t think it should have a different points value.
Here is a video of Jarets run at the Pan Am Games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdPBbYTDNE8
Does that not look like a front flip? 
It was scored credit for the full 800 and I don\'t think that should ever change. Jaret has always been one of the most precise, and clean skiers in the world, and lots of athletes have learned from him. To say that his run would be worth less next year and possibly even no credit is completely insane.
Not saying this is the best front flip he has ever done either. This is just the only one I found on youtube.
To me things need to be simplified in tricks, not made more complicated and difficult. 
No one from shore can tell inside or outside the line, it\'s a simple switch of the hand. You can hold the rope out the the side and  give enough clearance to flip in the direction of travel. Personally flipping directly towards the boat looks more like a front flip anways. It is actually probably harder to learn an inside the line front flip and also have it credit and straight forward that an outside the line one.
Please consider this input, and think about the big picture here. Lets focus on some issues that will improve trick skiing, not make it more complicated.
Thanks
Ryan
2016-02-02
Ryan Dodd comments: I guess simply put. If you are going to go to the effort to make a massive change to the sport, why not make one that might have a potential benefit to the growth and popularity of the sport. The athletes job doesn\'t need to be made more difficult in order to simplify the judging process due to the fact that most judges can\'t differentiate between a credit and no credit front flip. 

My rule and I am also a judge and have judged a world record is... If it looks like a front flip it is one!

 Why not add some style points or a bonus for a grab if you want to make a change to the trick or increase the difficulty to it.
2016-02-02
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah has read the issue and has no comment
2016-02-03
Kuno Ritschard has read the issue and has no comment
2016-02-04
Geoffrey Kee                     has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee                     is not voting at this time
2016-02-05
Jacinta Carroll comments: Personally i will stand with ryans comments on this one. I do not believe the judging of tricks needs to be made any harder than it already is. The crowd does not know the difference nor do half the skiers even watching. I personally do a regular front flip and reverse both outside the line. I dont feel like my competitors who may be inside the line should score any less than what i do. A front flip... we should be simplifying things not making it harder for both the judges and athletes..
2016-02-06
Geoffrey Kee                     has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee                     is not voting at this time
2016-02-07
Glen Williams comments: This is a tough issue for me to comment on with great confidence as I do not judge or sit in the boat for a lot of front flips . I have judged the video posted and would call some of the inside the line flips no credit . I also spent last week in the boat with Cory Pickos and he is adamant that a front flip inside the line is quicker to do and easier to learn , however that is just one mans ( very qualified opinion ) and does not mean inside the line front flips should be no credit just maybe worth less points . I like to keep things simple so I do like Ryan and Jacintas comments about just leaving it how it is . However this is not a simple issue so I\'m not ready to vote yet . 
Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2016-02-09
Bob Corson comments: Resolution of this issue is delaying publishing the rulebook.  We need to resolve it to move forward.  If you think we need more time to consider this and be more exact then you should vote for the motion and we will carry it forward to the next meeting.  If you want to go with the initial proposal, then we also need a more concise definition of exactly what the inside the line flip is and does the flip rotation have to be in the direction of travel.
Once again, let\'s try to resolve this issue as to not hold up the rules.
Thank you.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2016-02-09
Candido Moz comments: Hi all
I am sorry someone, see the E&A proposal as an incapacity of the Judges to distinguish good from bad inside Front Flip.
The request to give different value to the 2 kind of flips (inside and outside) has come from the skiers, and I can see the point, to perform an inside Front Flip and his reverse take 3 seconds, to perform an outside Front Flip and his reverse take 4 seconds.
Judgment, there is a conflict between the rule and how the trick is performed, basically no one is rotating on the direction of travel, as you can see from the posted video, ttp://www.iwsf.com/iwsftc/2015/FlipVideos/. Further more if you take some shots during the execution of those Flips http://www.iwsf.com/iwsftc/2015/FlipSamples.jpg, you can see there are differences, but really difficult to see at normal speed and difficult to explain, or to report in written. Until which deviation of the rotation, from the direction of travel, is the tricks valid?
I will not be surprise to see all of those Flips credit, or no credit by two different set of Judges, and I presume this is the reason why Bob state, “there is quite a disagreement on the credit and no credit inside Front Flip”.
In the E&A TC meeting held in Barcelona last week end of January, we discuss again this scenario,  as the results of that discussion we have produced the above proposal.
I know is a big change, but we believe this is the right way to go.
Candido Moz votes YES
2016-02-09
Jeffry Armstrong comments: Thank you Candido.  You make som e very good points.  We have always given points to a trick based on difficulty and time it takes to do the trick.   Thanks, too for the pictures.  It shows the ski starting to come up \'like someone starting to do a back flip\', then rolling into a front but sideways  motion.  To me that is a change of direction of travel.  Also, not a somersault action.  Could you also do the pictures on one or two of the front flips that doesn\'t come up(start) like a back so that people can see the distinction between the two?  
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2016-02-09
Nigel Talamo comments: I have been consulting with some judges to help me find a wider opinion. The more people I speak to, the more polarised the issue becomes. Overwhelming response has been support of the E&A proposal because there seems to be no consistency in the judging of the inside version. It should be a no credit until the rule is re-written or until we have a performance based ranking list and no absolute records. 
I totally support Ryan\'s proposal of adding style points. I hope that this means that he is considering a return to tricking as he had the most dramatic front flip. We need always to remember the spectator.
Nigel Talamo votes YES
2016-02-09
Ryan Dodd comments: 
I want to trick and my dramatic front flip which the crowd loved and  was inside the line ! What am I going to do??? Do,w back for less points or a no credit trick ??? No way!
Also my front flip to the back was also inside and I was the first one doing it years ago! I\'m pretty sure that wasn\'t an easy or low risk trick and was exciting to watch and worth the points.
Everyone loved it and gave me credit when I skied in the World Cup and masters years back 😄
Improve the judging ? How? Maybe the judges should have to spend a certain amount of time in a boat watching 10000 point trickers  practice to keep a certain rating ... If you are in the boat with skiers watching skiing it becomes much more simplified and easier to catch. If a judge comes to 1 or 2 events a year to watch top skiers in the world and doesn\'t fill in the time in the middle with actual boat time how on earth are they going to feel the pulse of the sport and know how the top skiers are trying to execute tricks.
Maybe then  my comment if it looks like a forward flip  Its credit and we are good to go!
An outside the line flip can also be done no credit is also my point. It isn\'t about inside or outside , more about doing it forward and not sideways... 
Maybe with some style points I\'ll come back😉
2016-02-10
Peter Person comments: Based on the input and comments, I believe we do not really have consensus about which way to go. For that reason, we must stay with the rules as they were until we do. It would be unreasonable to make any change without a clear position moving forward. If I understand the motion, it would mean a no from me.
Peter Person votes NO
2016-02-11
Peter Person comments: Revising my vote to YES, now understanding that YES implies status quo, no changes, we go back to before TC meeting where we do not distinguish between flips or different points.
Peter Person votes YES
2016-02-11
Jeffry Armstrong comments: Bob
I thought a yes meant the approval of E&A proposal???
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2016-02-11
Stian Lilleberg has read the issue and has no comment
2016-02-11
Celementine Lucine comments: Sorry it\'s a long, very long comment...
Hi Bob,
I thought the two variations of the front flip wasn\'t only considered at our meeting in Mexico, but well thought and voted already for 2016. I thought all our discussions since then was to see how we can go forward from then, especially to help skiers and judges in each of their jobs. Going backward now would be a huge stepback again i think.

The fact that most juges don\'t know how to juge an inside the line front flip, doesn\'t change anything to the actual fact that there is a big difference between and inside the line and an outside the line one. It\'s 2 different issues to me. This has been talked for over ten years now with the good trickers and coaches, and we all know that an inside the line front flip is not only easier, but faster to learn, quicker to do in a run, and much safer to do in all conditions, which are the reasons why most of the high level trickers (who train like professionnals) requested that we did something for the good of their event... especially because most juges are not able to juge this trick well (because too many are unfortunately too amateurs) and give credit for front flips that shouldn\'t be worth as much as the front flips outside the line. 

Therefore, our past discussions and vote in Mexico was a great step forward for the futur of our sport ! But it was one step. We shouldn\'t go back to before step one, we should start thinking about a step 2. 
For E&A, step 2 is our latest proposal because we realized the following things after the video analyses and as we want to make tricking easier for people to understand, more fair to skiers to do, easier for judges to juges etc., we ended up with a proposal to discuss for 2017 :
1. Almost all front flips inside the line are not following the actual rule of a front flip. (Flipping in the direction of travel) If a skiers flips from right to left, we clearly see that their heads are going down on the right of their skis instead of on the left.
2. When you take a wide sample of good juges, there is NO commun opinion. Some give it and some don\'t. And i don\'t believe we re gonna be able to educate the juges well.. Been there, done that... gosh it\'s a lost cause sometimes... And if we start talking about it, the skiers used as a bad exemple will never have it credit even if they learn it better... etc.
The reasons are either the skiers don\'t follow the rule, or the judges don\'t know really, or the rule is not accurate.. But for sure it\'s very messy right now.. and therefore how can it be fair ? (Can\'t be fair for the better skiers for sure).
Our first proposal to discuss with you guys is to help this, and simplify it. It will be much easier for skiers who start learning the front flips to know that they have to learn it this way and not other way, for the judges to know that 99% of them will be good, clear and credit, it will also be easy and clear for the public to recognize the trick, etc.. I\'m all for simple, clear and fair. 

Ryan, Jacinta, please don\'t think the TC wan\'t to complicate things.. it\'s the absolute opposite.. the goal here is to help the sport, but we have to keep in mind that we have to move in an Olympic spirit. By that i mean fairly on all levels, by considering everything that is at stake, even things we couldn\'t have been aware of before.
This issue for exemple, come from the skiers because of many issues that happened, that you probably didn\'t even know... At Moomba, i will be happy to discuss it all with you guys! 

More and more i believe we should move our sport into 2 different roads as there are two different goals in our sport. On more toward \"Olympic\" amateur skiing.. fair rules, judges, homologations, etc..where the goal is to have fair world championships for exemple, and the other one toward \"show\" professional skiing.. more oriented for spectators, cash prices, show, popularity.. where homologations and rules are less important, but where it need to go quick, easy to organise anywhere, and simple to juge.. (We ll actually have proposals soon for this side) (It would improve this side but wouldn\'t probably pass on the other side... which is why i believe more and more that there should be 2 roads to take..)
From my personal point of view, i believe things don\'t move much and opinions differs too much because everyone\'s goals are too different...

Anyway.. about this specific issue I would propose the following :

- For now we keep what was voted in Mexico and differenciate the inside the line from the outside the line starting this year as planned.
- At the end of the year we ll analyse all the score and judgements
- In the meantime, we can do a survey and bring back all the feedbacks and reports we can gather to move forward or not on the other proposal, not only from good skiers worldwide, but from Juges worldwide, (we have the E&A juges seminar in a few weeks too where we can collect tones of opinions), and also we should get with the coaches, because i believe they are the ones we should talk to mainly about this specific topic.) 
- After we get lots of information from many different people in our sport, we ll be able to decide something that will be better and more fair that what it is now i believe.

What do you think?

Thanks and sorry for making this so long...
Clem

PS: I will use a private group on facebook and a survey app to communicate with skiers. For the coaches, i think i have most of them.. But for the judges, Bob, would you have contact informations to give me by any chance? Thanks a lot
Celementine Lucine is not voting at this time
2016-02-12
Ryan Dodd comments: 
This topic has polar opposite opinions within our sport from an athlete and coaching perspective. Growing up there has always been two direct opposite views on how this trick can be learned and perfected, and all within the rules. To me if the tail of the ski leads the way, it will look like a front flip and it is one.
Determining if a front flip is worth more or less or credit or not depending on what hand you hold the rope is completely insane. What if  a skier throws the rope ( no hand ) and catches it upon landing. I know athletes who can do flips like this and it wouldn\'t surprise me if one of these talented athletes does this trick perfectly and does it no hand to prove a point... I have seen, and know for a fact a perfect front flip can be done inside the line, and as I said before It is actually harder to perfect an inside the line front flip.
Clem I agree a no credit front flip inside or out is faster, and easier to land. No doubt. So is a ski line if you cheat the take off, and put the rope in the water.... 
Going back to a meeting that most of the sport wasn\'t aware of and changing the point valuation on a trick doesn\'t seem like the right path to me. We are here now, and if we can\'t come to a consensus we should wait until next season to re evaluate. In the mean time, we should educate the judges more on what a credit front flip consists of. If the tail leads and it looks forward in direction I feel it should be credit, inside outside or no handed. I think we do whatever it takes to educate the judges before we make it harder for the skiers. 
Lots of elite level trickers only know how to do an inside the line front flip.  Telling them the run they have perfected for 5, 10 or 15 years is now worth less and potentially even no credit makes no sense to me.
I agree if they do it no credit in the event, cut it. For sure. A no credit trick should be scored 0.

Moving forward if the front flip education process doesn\'t clean up the \"issues\" that Clem is reffering to, then we should look into clarifying the ruling of a credit front flip. Allocating different points to a trick based on what hand you hold the rope doesn\'t fix anything. 

Thanks
Ryan
2016-02-12
Celementine Lucine comments: There will always be opposite point of view on this trick as long as there are skiers doing in one way and others doing it the other way. We\'re all humans after all. This issue had been going on for a decade and nothing has changed because there always was too many trickers doing it inside the line and fighting of course to keep it that way, and we couldn\'t penalize them either, you\'re right Ryan of course. But now it\'s getting different, we re looking to make things move because it has been requested strongly by many of the good trickers... and therefore we analyzed the actual skiers that will be impacted in the couple years to come if we change things a little, and only one or two will really be. And they\'re still young and they have a couple years before next worlds, and time to learn it the other way around if they want to keep the full 800pts. All the others know how to do the outside the line but decide not too because it\'s easier. 
I wish we could educate the judges, but it\'s not happening... I have been fighting so many things like this for years, it\'s impossible! Some years none will be given credit, and then for a few years (like the last two) all of them will be credit because no one brought it up again...  And it\'s hurting the good skiers i promise you.

Ryan, if some jumpers were able to go super far with a special speedsuit with wings as if they had to cut way harder for exemple, and if they would beat you sometimes because the judges didn\'t penalize them, even if the rule clearly states you\'re not supposed to use that.. i promise you, you wouldn\'t leave it as it is... you would fight hard so the best guy on the water according to the actual rules wins ;)

About your last comment, i agree that a front flip shouldn\'t be credit or not credit depending on the rope we hold but on how we rotate.. The problem is that no actual young skiers is doing it really credit according to the rule anymore and they all get it credit anyway.. If we educate the juges, no one will get it credit afterwards, and it will be worst for skiers.. ! This is why we believe the best way for everyone, is to differentiate the two. One inside the line and we redefine the rule for that one (since no one follows it anyway) and one outside the line.  Please look and study the front flips of worlds sent out.. It\'s obvious the difference between the two!  It wasn\'t like this a few years back.. it\'s getting worst and worst with the reverse and the variations now.. We can rewrite the rules now accordingly very easily i think. 

One last thing, most skiers know about it, many asked for it, many discussed it at worlds, and mainly, for those who don\'t yet, they will have a year before it takes effect. In figure skating, they changed to all judging system to make the event better and more fair, and it helped some, hurted some... but they did it to move forward.. We did the same when we went from perfect pass to zero off. We can never have everyone agreeing on things otherwise things never move.
Celementine Lucine is not voting at this time
2016-02-12
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I don\'t know how you are voting. I agree with most of what you said but I dont know exactly what you want. I thought at first you were standing with the E&A proposal. 
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2016-02-12
Celementine Lucine comments: Yes of course  i\'m standing with the E&A proposal. We made the proposal after considering all i explained before.
However I haven\'t voted here as we agreed with Ryan and Jacinta that i will vote here only when we agree on the issue. 

Celementine Lucine is not voting at this time
2016-02-13
Jeffry Armstrong comments: Actually it is really not iside the line or outside the line that is the problem.  It simply identifies which flips generally start out more like a back flip.  Ryan is correct when he says that the tail should lead by coming up and over(more like a true somersault) BUT NOT after the front tip comes up the wake like a back flip and then there is a change of direction into a front sideways roll.  I was glad to hear Clem talk about the ease of doing the \'roll type\' front flip that is usually ending up sideways at best and the fact that it takes a shorter time to do it. She also mentioned that it is easier to learn and that is what I have heard from other athletes.  I am voting for this recommendation because there are front flips that adhere to the rules, as written and ones that don\'t. 
Jeffry Armstrong votes YES
2016-02-15
Glen Williams comments: I vote yes 
Glen Williams votes YES
2016-02-15
Christophe Duverger comments: ok for 2 different variations...of the front flip for now....
2016-02-15
Ryan Dodd comments: Hello all ,
Here is Jaret Llewellyns thoughts on this. I couldn\'t think of anyone with more experience in tricks and overall than him.
Sorry this has taken me a few days, I was not aware the issue was on the table right now and I always get way too deep into why are we here and how are we going to fix it.

I understand there is two topics on the table for discussion, Front flip and Overall scoring.

Front flip - what constitutes credit? The problem is, that too many bad front flips have been given to big name skiers, at major competitions over the years, because of lack of \"clarity\". Clarity on how the trick rule is written, judged, enforced and understood are all problems that still exist.

Years ago, skiers thought doing the front inside the line was faster, but then some skiers stretched what was a front to a side role and the judging of the rule did not enforce proper execution of the trick. Nowadays, a correct inside, or outside the line front is relatively the same time, depending on who performs the trick. The load for a proper front inside, or outside the line is the same, tail to tip. So even if you did a proper front, threw the handle, landed, caught the handle, would it be credit? It should not matter right, left, or No hands how the trick should be judged, just if the rotation is following the same plane that the rule outlines. 

Solution - Rule needs to be written clearer, so judges know what to look for. A rule explaining what happens as the ski releases off the wake. If the trick is done clean, you should not be able to tell what the hands are doing. If there is a question what the trick was, then the proper plane was not followed. Giving 100pts less to inside the line does not solve what a non front is. Its a credit or its not. Judges cant give 700pts to a BS front flip. 

Current rule 15.19: Trick Descriptions and Values 

b) To receive credit for the wake flip, it is required that both feet be higher than the head and in approximately the same vertical plane at some point during the execution of the trick.
A front wake flip shall be defined as a forward somersault done in the air off the wake in which the tail of the ski passes up and over the head as the head goes down and forward. The rotation must be in the direction of travel. Both feet must be above the head and in approximately the same vertical plane at some point during the execution of the trick. 

here in red it is not clear what the tip and tail are doing off the wake, Judges are clearly missing how the ski roles off the wake. Inconsistent judging this trick has led us to penalizing skiers, who do it according to how the rule was intended to be written. 


**Suggested Cleaner rule - A front wake flip shall be defined as a forward somersault done in the air, off the wake, in which the tail must lead the rotation off the wake. With the TIP GOING DOWN and the TAIL COMING UP and over the head, as the head goes down and forward, in approximately the same vertical plane and direction of travel. The ski tip cannot go up and out to the side and back over the head, because this would be outside the same vertical plane. 

**** Thinking about what really is wrong - the Question I ask myself is - So the front is a problem, so lets focus on this one trick, but there are so many problems with so many tricks (T7, T5B, T5F, SLs....) Trick calling accuracy is at an all time low. Why? Trickers are getting faster, judges can\'t keep up, tricks become sloppier and faster, scores come out slower, wrong people are winning and the cycle continues.  Go figure why the trickers have no pro events?  Rule 15.15 has been discussed in the past, but should be revisited. Slowing the judges camera down to get consistent accurate calling speed would help clean the sport up. The trick event needs to move towards whatever makes the sport more accurate, cleaner, easier to call, for instant scoring. 2003 I submitted to IWSF TC to have multiple trick sheets, to allow the athlete to have the flexibility to pick different runs. The decision to move away from declared trick runs has put the judge at a total disadvantage to be consistent and fast enough to move the sport forward. In Twelve years the trick event has fallen apart.

Current Rule 15.15: Use of the Video Camera
The tricks shall be filmed by a video camera from the boat. The usual procedure will be to transmit the signal by radio to the judges tower and the intention is to judge in real time. Backup video will be a stored copy of the video at the camera. Other than as stated in 15.11, the video film may only be shown as an aid to the Event Judges under the following circumstances:
a) At the request of the Chief Judge or the Chief Calculator if it is not possible for the Calculators to obtain a majority decision as to the trick or tricks performed.
b) At the request of the Chief Judge or Chief Calculator if it is not possible for the Calculators to obtain a majority decision as to whether or not credit is to be given for a trick.
I.W.W.F. 2014 Tournament water ski rules Pag. 44

c) In circumstances which the Chief Judge regards as exceptional, the Chief Judge may review the tape and ask the applicable Event Judges to look at the run again so that the correct score may be established.
d) At the request of a judge (and approved by the Chief Judge) the video may be reviewed to establish credit or no credit of a trick or tricks provided the judge(s) states which trick(s) they wish to review. It is not the intention to review the entire run.
The video will only be shown at normal speed.
d) At the request of a judge (and approved by the Chief Judge) the video may be reviewed to establish credit or no credit of a trick or tricks provided the judge(s) states which trick(s) they wish to review. It is not the intention to review the entire run.
The video will only be shown at normal speed.


Get rid of this thinking, slow the camera down slightly, so the sport is accurate. Without consistency and quick scoring the sport will never grow. Trickers will never make money. Some skiers may think this is crazy, but they are thinking of themselves and not the sport.


***Suggest Rule change- 15.15 Video judging will be used at a reduced speed of (?) and one instant replay at the same speed will be performed, to allow judges the opportunity to review their sheet before final submission. No time during the event may Judges discuss opinions about tricks being performed. 

2016-02-15
Jeffry Armstrong comments: We have 5 voting FOR the recommendation. I voted YES FOR the recommendation, but now I don\'t know whether this issue has passed or not.  I think what Jaret is saying about the video could be on the right track.  I do believe that the judging accuracy is down and especially on front flips
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2016-02-15
Bob Corson comments: This will maintain the status quo while we still discuss the issue.
Bob Corson votes YES
2016-02-15
Celementine Lucine comments: I think we need more time on the front flip issue to decide if we vote for or against the RECOMMENDATION and to come up with a good and smart decision for NEXT YEAR.

For this year however we decided to have and test the 700pts for the inside the line and 800pts for the outside for ALL the reasons stated for a long time. I don\'t believe this should be changed. I actually believe this will make people more involved in the topic and we ll have much better feedbacks during the season. We might even see many skiers improving their front flips or putting their good outside the line instead of their average inside, etc.

In the meantime i will gather more recommandations from skiers but mostly from coaches around the globe. Let\'s open a new issue that will be open for a few months maybe ? A place where we can discuss all the pros and cons, gather ideas, propose new wording of the rule like jaret\'s first proposal, etc. Jaret\'s comments are a start and i believe the more feedbacks we\'ll have, the better we\'ll be able to decide something and stand by it for the 2017 season. Maybe we ll realized the 700pts for the inside fixed the issue as asked by most of the actual skiers, or maybe not, but we ll know then for sure. Anyway.. we need more time Bob for the 2017 changes. We need to decide lets say before June, so if we make a significant change for next year, all skiers will have over a year to adapt before next world.

If we only clarify the rule as mentioned Jaret for now, i\'m a little worried that this year, pretty much no skiers but Jaret will get their inside the line front flip credit, as no other skier really has the tail that leads the rotation AND has the head going down in the direction of travel... If i\'m right, we make it more complicated for the skiers and judges.. while the original proposal was intended to do the opposite. 
Anyway, let\'s decide something for 2016 and after gather more informations and feedbacks in the coming weeks to help us reach a good decision to implement for 2017?

PS: I quite agree with what Jaret is saying about the video to judge... Judges will need to change their way of thinking though.. Modernise ahah.. might take a little while to get everyone on board.. but can be good for tricking.. That s another issue of course. We\'ll actually have proposals this year for that. ;)
Celementine Lucine is not voting at this time
2016-02-15
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2016-02-16
Jeffry Armstrong comments: This is not really about this issue.
I have noted that we are having participation at a low level.  Lower than I\'ve ever seen before.  I know some of the issues are difficult, but we have to vote. It is our obligation to participate and vote.
I would like to ask the President to make a chart of participation over the past couple of years.  Being on this Tournament Council is very important to the Sport.  If a slot/s is/are not participating, then, we need change.  We thrive on one another\'s comments/suggestions.  
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Felix Loreto - Commented
Wayne Briant - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - voted Yes
Ryan Dodd - Commented
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah - Commented
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Candido Moz - voted Yes
Nigel Talamo - voted Yes
Peter Person - voted Yes
Stian Lilleberg - Commented
Jeffry Armstrong - voted Yes
Glen Williams - voted Yes
Christophe Duverger - Commented
Bob Corson - voted Yes
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Dimos Alexopoulos*
Robin Wright
Larry Gisler*
Sergio Font*
Javier Julio
Geoffrey Kee*
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Ricardo Botas
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
Robert Ritter
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*