IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 423
Ramp Issues
Date Opened 2015-08-01
Date Closed 2019-09-01
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Here is the issue

Per issue 417, we have implemented the changes in the homologation dossier to have the homologator verify that the ramp is flat.  In addition, I am proposing that we have the ramp/site owner certify that the ramp has been designed to be flat.  This would be done via a web form showing that the site/ramp owner certifies that the ramp has been designed as flat.  The ramp/site owner would do this via a web form at:
http://www.iwsftournament.com/homologation/RampCertification.htm

Having certified the ramp, a list of ramp certifications would be available at:
http://www.iwsftournament.com/homologation/rampstatus.php

Then if a skier would complain that a ramp was not flat, we would investigate if the certification had merit and potentially remove the performances from the ranking list.

Vote yes to approve this mechanism.
Comments:?

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2015-08-02
Felix Loreto comments: Interesting.
Maybe some sites will have to hire someone to do this.
What happens when homologator finds out ramp is not as certified??? Of course this is before skiers jump and they should be warned ramp does not meet IWWF´s requirements and that jumps and overall scores will not be valid for IWWF list and records. Any other actions to be considered?

2015-08-02
Nigel Talamo comments: This database would be a help to homologators getting in potentially sticky situations. Yes
Nigel Talamo votes YES
2015-08-02
Kuno Ritschard has read the issue and has no comment
2015-08-02
Stian Lilleberg comments: I like this idea, and agree with Nigel. Felix has a good remark too.
2015-08-02
Larry Gisler comments: Good Idea !
2015-08-02
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I am pleased to say that this is where the responsibility should be.  It is not the homologator\'s job to get underneath the ramp and try to determine how the ramp is designed.  It is the owner\'s responsibility. I definitely am for this methology.
Jeffry Armstrong votes YES
2015-08-03
Wayne Briant comments: I have concerns with this method.
The statement is flat and the rules have a tolerance. 
I do not agree that a skier complaint that a ramp is not flat can put in question every homologator and site owner. I do not think skiers, site owners or homologators should be put in this situation.

My suggestion is that each site can be photographed whilst checking or homologating the ramp. The photo should be taken while the flat line test is being carried out. It will show the variance and if it meets tolerance. This can be added to a data bank if wanted.
I am concerned why this is being treated different to any other homologation rule or process. It is either in tolerance or out. Again I say if the tolerance is too large reduce the tolerance.

This issue has gone on for so long now, why don\'t we leave it to be discussed at the Mexico meeting.


2015-08-03
Wayne Briant comments: I realise I should have explained my concern on a skier complaint further.
If a skier was disgruntle or had a personal issue with a site owner or tournament, they could cause or create a real drama. You could have numerous site, ramp and results in question and needing investigation. 
There is know way we should ever create a situation where a skier is or has the ability to hold to ransom results or sites legitimacy. 
We need to foster development of ski sites, jump ramps and tournaments not make them more onerous or subject to skiers private agendas.


2015-08-03
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2015-08-03
Glen Williams comments: I support Wayne\'s comments . Why would skiers have a say in this but not homolgation of everything to do with setting up and running tournaments . Ramp owners should declare that the the ramp was built to be flat and a picture of the string line measurement of the ramp surface should be available on request .thats all we need .  Let\'s try and keep this as simple as possible . Ramp deviation is only one part of an already complicated rules and homolgation process hard working tech controllers , clubs , tournament organisers and site owners must go through to put on an event . I Also think we could wait and sort this out in Mexico . 

Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2015-08-04
Felix Loreto comments: I believe it is not for skier to decide/complain if ramp is within tolerance or not, this is the homologator´s job and as said before, skiers should be warned at meeting before tournament if ramp meets IWWF starndards..
Would consider all this in Mexico´s agenda before taking any further actions.
2015-08-04
Bruce Cockburn comments: I am not in favour of this I don;t think it will achieve what we want I am not prepared to vote on this now I would like it discussed at our meeting in November

Bruce Cockburn abstains
2015-08-04
Jeffry Armstrong comments: The 13.02 rule clarification that WE JUST PASSED a few weeks ago states that a ramp that has any other design other than to be flat is NOT legal. With that we have gone past taking a picture of the string IF the ramp is not legal.   What we are trying to do is put the responsibility of HOW the ramp was designed on the right person. That is the site ramp/owner.  It is NOT the homologator\'s responsibility to say HOW the ramp is designed.  It is the homologator\'s responsibility to set the ramp, check the deviation, and do all the other things that he has always done. None of that changes.  This ramp certification data, as signed off by its owner, simply says what ramps are certified according to 13.02 by the way they are made.(this has already passed the TC) The homologator still does the same work at each competition.  Right now any body can imply that something is wrong with a ramp OR a course.  It doesn\'t have to be a skier........Bob used that as a hypothetical example.  If by any means a ramp is found to use wedges, kickers, or any other methodoly(after being signed off by owner) to build the ramp (as identified in 13.02)then, the scores may be removed from IWWF lists.  Who gets blamed?  THE RAMP SITE/OWNER. NOT us, NOT the homologator, NOT the Chief Judge, none of which had anything to do with building a ramp that doesn\'t conform to the rules. NOW, we have some competitions already that fall in this category and if we wait until to Mexico for this one, we probably will have others to contend with. WE HAVE ONE record performed on one of these ramps and YES, a skier did inquire about that record.  This certification data is a simple way to create this list of ramps and puts the responsibility on the right person, the owner that knows all about HIS RAMP. When he/she signs, he/she either tells the truth OR he lies.  If there is a lie, it will get caught up with sometime or other. Normally, I would be ALL FOR waiting...........we have waited on this long enough.
Jeffry Armstrong votes YES
2015-08-04
Esteban Siegert has read the issue and has no comment
2015-08-04
Wayne Briant comments: It appears that Jeffry has more information on a particular site or event than I do. If Jeffery cares to share the information with us we maybe able to make informed decisions.
I still strongly disagree that any event be treated different than any other event period. 
2015-08-04
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I do strongly believe that a site that is being used has a ramp that is wedged. It could be more than one site. The site/ramp owner is the only one to say this for sure. He knows.  As you said and I agree..... I don\'t want any event or site to be treated differently than any other either. However, if a site IS different and outside the rules, then, we need a mechanism by which we can do something about it and make it fair and equal for all sites..  With having the site/ramp owner declare that his ramp is according to the rules by design and build, that gives us the opportunity to keep all sites fair and equal. This is a matter of having data that puts the responsibility where it belongs....with the owner..no more no less.
Jeffry Armstrong votes YES
2015-08-04
Bruce Cockburn comments: I still feel this will be better decided at our meeting I don\'t think a database of jumps stated by owners means anything and is usless I have changed my mind and am now voting the introduction of this 
Bruce Cockburn votes NO
2015-08-08
Gill Hill has read the issue and has no comment
2015-08-11
Candido Moz comments: As Jeffry state, we just approve a clarification to the rules about rump surface. So I do not see any problem that a rump owner certify that the rump has designed and build to be flat.
I do not see any problem about skier complain. How many times did we received a skier complain on site (rump, slalom course etc….) up to now? And if someone will complain, is the time for a verifications.
Actions for misrepresentation, probably yes, but this is something that we can discuss later if needed.
I strongly believe a list of certify rump, will help us a lot and limit potential abuses. 
Candido Moz votes YES
2015-08-13
Peter Person comments: I think it has to be said again, that Bob is not saying that skiers must complain. It is his example only. And we most certainly have received complaints or questions about the correctness of slalom sites, jump ramps etc. from various people, some perhaps legitimate, some not.

I am a little uncertain about the effectiveness of this proposal, it definitely forces the site owner or ramp builder to confirm their intent that the ramp is designed flat. It may not actually be so, within tolerance for sagging, but that the sag is not intentional. By making a formal statement of that intent, the owner places their integrity and reputation on the line.

I see no value in taking pictures as part of this. The homologator\'s job is to make this check. An old picture really does not add value.
Peter Person votes YES
2015-08-15
Glen Williams comments: I vote no .
Glen Williams votes NO
2015-08-15
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah has read the issue and has no comment
2015-08-15
Bob Corson comments: I extended the closing date.  
  
As a real world example for the recently set Ski Fly record, Vern sent me a note from Jaret Llewellyn saying that Bemman built the Ski Fly ramp for Freddy so that you could put a 4 inch dish in it.   I wrote to Bemman and he responded that the ramp was built to conform to the rules (flat).  Will Bush, the CJ looked at the ramp and saw that there were aluminum stringers supporting the surface.  There was an adjustment mechanism because the fiberglass surface expands at a different rate than the aluminum stringers and the surface may bow up without adjustment.

So, the comment caused everybody to rush around to confirm that everything was just as it was supposed to be and that everybody was doing the job that they were supposed to.  

However, in this case you can clearly see the adjustment mechanism:
http://www.iwsf.com/skifly/IMG_4204.jpg
You can also see that it is set to \"neutral\" in that the width of the gap is the same from the top of the gap to the bottom.  The ramp had a 2.4 cm sag as measured by the homologator (For ski fly, 5.0 cm is allowed, the surface length is 7.35-7.5m).  I guess it would be possible by tightening the bolt (narrowing the gap at the bottom) to remove the dish in the ramp slightly to make it absolutely flat.  However, conversely, it seems that it is also possible to widen the gap to put a more extreme dish in the ramp.  Since the dish was not at the maximum allowed and the gap was uniform width, the inference drawn is that the adjustment mechanism was not being used for the purpose of creating a dish in the ramp.

Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2015-08-15
Felix Loreto comments: Very good and inexpensive solution for just about any metal ramp which is out of tolerance.
Just keep on adjusting bolts until ramp is back to flat again.
The mechanism as shown, allows ramp to bend in the one direction which will not give skier an advantage. 
For having ramp stiff, a second internal nut would be needed in the right side.
2015-08-24
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: I strongly believe that its the owners responsibility to follow the rules when organizing an event. So I completely agree with Bobs proposal. A list of \"certified\" ramps makes no harm. It shows that our sport is on a \"fair play\" basis.
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
2015-09-21
Bob Corson has read the issue and has no comment
Bob Corson votes YES
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Felix Loreto - Commented
Nigel Talamo - voted Yes
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Stian Lilleberg - Commented
Larry Gisler - Commented
Jeffry Armstrong - voted Yes
Wayne Briant - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - voted No
Ryan Dodd - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Candido Moz - voted Yes
Peter Person - voted Yes
Glen Williams - voted No
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah - Commented
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted Yes
Bob Corson - voted Yes
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Robin Wright
Jacinta Carroll*
Sergio Font*
Javier Julio
Geoffrey Kee*
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Ricardo Botas
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
Robert Ritter
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*