IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 415
Rules Interpretation request
Date Opened 2015-04-24
Date Closed 2019-09-01
See all other issues

Here is the issue

This is a question on a mid-week tournament next week so I would appreciate a fast response.
Question:
Can an overall record be set by a skier who is skiing 2 events in open and the 3rd event in an age division.  All performances are in the same round (naturally for overall).  The age division has the same physical rules as the Open Division (max speed, etc.)
This is not specifically addressed in the IWWF Rulebook which really assumes a one division tournament(Open, U21, U17) or a tournament where you can't ski in more than one division(35+ age restriction).  However, we do know that some team oriented tournaments with multiple divisions allow a skier to ski in more than one division for team scoring but that is not the question here.

Please comment and vote.
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2015-04-25
Felix Loreto comments: What is the bottom line here?
Why is someone trying to get scores from a different division?
Skiing in different divisions can be and advantage or disadvange due to weather conditions, daylight and other factors.
If skier wants to have an Opne overall score, then skier would have to do all three in Opne and can also ski whichever discipline he/she wants in separate division as extra.
We have local tournament where our Junior Skiers also compete in Opne and they ski thre events separately in each and their overall scores are computed separately, not mixing them up.
Do not see the need of the skier doing tricks for example in a different division. The tricks points are the same in any division. Do not understand why.
An overall score is supposed to be the sum of all three in same division. Rulebook does not say you cannot do this, but it does not allow it either.
I do not vote, only comment but I am not in favor of this.
2015-04-25
Gill Hill comments: i would just ask who is going to control the results to check these things if this is allowed.

2015-04-26
Kuno Ritschard has read the issue and has no comment
2015-04-26
Jeffry Armstrong comments: Bob:  As I understand it, there was also a question of whether a skier could set a record skiing in another division(say Women II).  The answer that I heard seemed to be yes.  Now, if a skier can set a world record skiing in another division, I would think that a skier could set a world overall record skiing in two(or one) division in age and one or more in Open.  The same follows through with either of these scenarios.  Let\'s say a skier sets a World Slalom Or other discipline record and is skiing in an age division.  Is the record going to be disallowed because they are listed under \'another name\' beside Open?  It seems if a record is set and the standards are the same, then, it should be a record.  For instance, an upcoming U21 skier could set a potential world record at a tournament other their than Worlds and he is listed as U21 Men.
Seems that would be the same.As far as checking records, the score book is available.  Either there is proper proof or there is not.The actual skiing is what counts, not the fact that someone is \'listed\' as one title or another.  If you can\'t set an Overall record in this manner then, we have to follow through and not allow any one not skiing in OPEN to set a record.  If we do that.....and someone does set a record, it seems that the outside world is going to think that \'something stinks\". It hasn\'t happened, BUT it soulc.  I am always open to other thoughts.........this is just what comes to my mind on the subject.

Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2015-04-27
Bob Corson comments: Actually there is some more background to this issue - I was trying not to bring in specifics that might create confusion.  However the particular issue is starting to come up in other areas.
The issue is a commercial one.  Skiers have contracts with boat companies.  These contracts say that the skier cannot ski behind another boat unless it is a Pro tournament.  We have said that in any particular round/event/division, the same boat must be used.  So, if the organizer schedules boat A for tricks and jump and boat B for slalom in Open and boat A for slalom in another division that the open skier also qualifies for by age then the only way that skier can ski behind boat A is to ski in open in trick and jump and the age division in slalom.
The even more complicating problem is that ski sites also have contracts with boat companies.  Now apparently these boat companies are beginning to say that the site under contract can only use their boat for tournaments at that site.  The effect of this is that skiers who have signed contracts with boat companies will be restricted from skiing at non-pro tournaments where their boat company\'s boat is not used.
In many senses, this is not an issue we have control over as it is a contract agreed to between two parties for commercial purposes.  

Back to the issue of records using performances from different divisions, it seems to me that would be OK as long as the skier only skied in one division in that event in that round.  If the skier skis in more than one division (like in a Pan Am team tournament where a skier might ski in all events in say Open and U21) then the overall score would be from scores made in that division only.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2015-04-27
Larry Gisler comments: The skier need ski in open división to set the record , so we are sure that everything is going right .
2015-04-27
Esteban Siegert has read the issue and has no comment
2015-04-27
Peter Person comments: My view is more like Jeffry\'s. For one event, if the technical conditions are met, its a record. I can\'t imagine denying a record to a junior who beats the open record. That said, the issue of an overall record is possibly more complex, maybe, but if its all the same round I think it should be treated the same as I just described. If the skier were skiing in two divisions in the same round and same event, then that might be a problem.

Peter Person is not voting at this time
2015-04-28
Felix Loreto comments: After all these comments the issue becomes somewhat clear. A U21 skier and female Jr could set an overall record since all rules are the same, in case of Jr male skier, he should only be allowed if ramp is at mid height, low height should not be allowed, and tricks will always be the same. What I am not in favor of is picking scores from different divisions and add them up for overall in another division. Overall scores should only be the sum of performances obtained in one single division.
2015-04-29
Candido Moz comments: I will say, an overall record can only be set if a skier is competing in the  same division. It can be in any age categories, but it must be in the same division.
Candido Moz votes NO
2015-04-29
Nigel Talamo comments: I feel that we should encourage overall skiing. However this situation has arisen because of a conflict between the skier and his/her sponsor. It is their problem to solve. Allowing this, will set a precedent for more commercial demands to control the sport.
Nigel Talamo votes NO
2015-04-29
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: I agree with Felix and Candido, I agree that an Overall record can be set when the skier is competing the events in the same division.
Dimos Alexopoulos votes NO
2015-04-29
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2015-04-29
Bob Corson comments: I extended the date on this issue as we only have 3 votes
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2015-04-30
Bruce Cockburn comments: I agree with Candido
Bruce Cockburn votes NO
2015-05-01
Peter Person comments: Can someone please tell me the difference between division and age category as Candido describes? I don\'t think we are all on the same thing.
Peter Person is not voting at this time
2015-05-02
Wayne Briant has read the issue and has no comment
2015-05-06
Jeffry Armstrong has read the issue and has no comment
Jeffry Armstrong votes YES
2015-06-10
Bob Corson comments: I have re-opened this issue so that the voting can be completed.  Please vote so we can give a definitive answer.
Thank you.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2015-06-10
Peter Person has read the issue and has no comment
Peter Person votes YES
2015-06-14
Glen Williams has read the issue and has no comment
Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2015-06-15
Geoffrey Kee                     comments: Nil
Geoffrey Kee                     votes NO
2015-06-16
Kuno Ritschard has read the issue and has no comment

Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Felix Loreto - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Larry Gisler - Commented
Ryan Dodd - Commented
Candido Moz - voted No
Nigel Talamo - voted No
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted No
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - voted No
Wayne Briant - Commented
Jeffry Armstrong - voted Yes
Peter Person - voted Yes
Geoffrey Kee - voted No
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Bob Corson
Robin Wright
Glen Williams*
Jacinta Carroll*
Stian Lilleberg
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah
Sergio Font*
Javier Julio
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Ricardo Botas
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
Robert Ritter
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*