IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 402
U21 Championships
Date Opened 2014-12-22
Date Closed 2019-09-01
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Here is the issue

You have seen the announcement of the U21's in Spain.  This bid was requested by Kuno since there were no bidders for the Championships and approved by the Executive Board.  Several adjustments were made to the obligations.
The tournament will be run in 3 days instead of 4.  Each of the last 2 U21 championships had about 240 rides which included the 72 rides in the finals.  This is achievable assuming no bad weather delays which seem unlikely based on the area's typical weather.
There is no final banquet (unless a sponsor can be found).
There will be 2 drivers instead of 3.
There will be 5 appointed judges.  This is where we have to accept a change in the rules for this tournament.  The rules require 5 trick calling judges for World Championship.  As we also need a boat judge and to ask all 5 judges to judge through all 80+ rides seems like too much.  We know that with technology that we can use fewer judges and provide fair competition.  So I would ask the TC to approve waiving the 5 trick judge requirement for this Championship.
Vote yes to approve, no to disapprove.

Thank you.


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2014-12-22
Esteban Siegert has read the issue and has no comment
2014-12-22
Gill Hill has read the issue and has no comment
2014-12-22
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah has read the issue and has no comment
2014-12-22
Larry Gisler comments: I recommended 3 for semi finals , 5 for finals, just 24 skiers .
2014-12-22
Bruce Cockburn comments: I question if 5 judges are enough it requires
5 Judges for slalom 2 Buoy 2 Gate and a boat Judge
5 Judges for Jump 2 Measuring 2 Water and 1 Boat Judge
and even if you use 3 Trick Judges it still requires 5 Judges for Tricks
3 Judges 2 timing Judges
That means all judges are working all day for 3 full days
Bruce Cockburn is not voting at this time
2014-12-22
Glen Williams comments: I am happy with just running 3 judges for tricks . As Bruce says we still need 5 to run tricks . 
I understand the need to keep costs down by organisers , however As Bruce points out  we are asking a lot of officials to work full time for 3 days . It is important the judges are alert and making good rulings not tired and worn out . 
Is it possible to find a couple of local top rated judges who do not require accomodation and meals to help out and give some of our panel a break during each day ? 

Glen . 

Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2014-12-22
Glen Williams comments: Sorry just read what I posted and realised it wasn\'t very clear . I am happy with 3 judges calling the tricks plus 2 judging the time . 
Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2014-12-23
Kuno Ritschard comments: Sesena is an easy site which has hosted many Events. All technical installations are there. Slalom and jump need only three judges. We have to become used at smaller Panels to reduce costs for  the organisers. This will be part of the Revision of the LAO which the EB will prepare for the next World Congress. Also for example the World Games and now just also the Panam Games are not allowing so many officials. 
2014-12-23
Candido Moz comments: I have been there as Chief Judge at the last E&A Youth Championships. The site is a man made lake \"2 lakes\". We normally compete only in 1.
3 Judges are needed for Slalom, 3 Judges are needed for Jump. 
For Tricks I will let the Chief Judge and the appointed panel to decide how to work, (using 3 or 5 Judges) and the Ass. Chief Judge can work too. Nadine Botas, Sandra Botas and Nicole Baird will be there, they are qualify as Senior Judges and can help if needed.
I will vote Yes
Candido Moz votes YES
2014-12-23
Inessa Potes has read the issue and has no comment
2014-12-23
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: I also know the site, everything is on place. I agree with Candido, if needed Chief judge can work also. So I agree.
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
2014-12-23
Felix Loreto has read the issue and has no comment
2014-12-23
Geoffrey Kee                     comments: Agree. 
Geoffrey Kee                     votes YES
2014-12-23
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2014-12-23
Jeffry Armstrong comments:  I very much appreciate the efforts to make this World Championships happen.  Thanks to Kuno.  I question whether we should compromise a World Championships, to this degree.  I am in Bruce\'s court with whether this is the way to go in making the 5 judges work to this extent. In Pan Am, a judge must have the Pan Am Rating to judge at a regional or World event. I would not be for using other judges at the site other than secondary positions. This would not be fair to those who have gone the extra mile to be rated as Pan Am.
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2014-12-25
Wayne Briant comments: I totally understand why this situation has risen, but I believe we have to stay with 5 judges for the trick event. I know we can get some judges to volunteer to help out in the trick event. I know my wife would gladly judge the girls trick event to help. 
We need to stay with the rules at a world event or we don\'t need to meet the requirement anywhere. 

2014-12-25
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: I have no voting right but I like to say that Wayne is right. It is the World Championships afterall. Do we at some time in the future also drops this rule for the Open Worlds? Am sure there will be plenty of world class judges amongst those already planned to be at the U21 Worlds like Wayne said. 
2014-12-26
Jeffry Armstrong comments: There is more to this than just asking if we can have three judges in tricks and a total of fewer judges.
There also is more to it than just asking to \'bring in\' judges that may be at the site.  From Pan Am, we would only be willing to sanction using \'other\' judges at the site ONLY IF they have the Pan Am judge designation. Meaning that they must have passed the Pan Am Test. A Senior desgination in PanAm doesn\'t mean that they have been tested on IWWF rules.  It means they have been tested on  Federation Rules only. I think we are going down \'a slippery slope\' in at least two ways..........1) altering rules; 2)altering and allowing other than the panel of officials to judge.   As Wayne stated, this IS a Worlds! If this is a Worlds that is hard to SELL(promote), then, maybe we shouldn\'t be having this category.
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2014-12-27
Larry Gisler comments: How much money we need to cover the extra judges?
Probably this money can coming outside the organizer.
2014-12-31
Peter Person comments: I am reluctant to permit 3 judges. If I understand what I have read correctly, there are fully qualified judges available locally, then it may be possible to achieve this in an economic way. The issue over the workload is significant, particularly in trick where keeping focused for an extended period can be challenging, but with a flexible seed group schedule it may be possible to provide breaks. Although asking for fewer judges AND compressing the event into one less day is a bit unreasonable.
Peter Person is not voting at this time
2014-12-31
Ageliki Andriopoulou comments: I agree with Wayne and Hanifah. This is a World Championship and I believe the rules of the game should be keept as is. Maybe Larry\'s idea to try and find the money needed to cover the extra judges could be the answer. 

Ageliki Andriopoulou votes NO
2015-01-01
Bruce Cockburn comments: I am against allowing 3 judges for tricks I belive if we continue this way we will start to have more problems getting good officals to these events

If we expect officals to work all day for the length of the event we will have trouble getting them it already cost most officals a lot of money to go and work 
the extra cost for extra officals is very small in the cost of the event 
I now it is hard to get people to run this event but we should not have to change our rules to have someone run the event
Mabe it is time for the IWWF to pay for the officals and add it to the event sancion fee


Bruce Cockburn votes NO
2015-01-01
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I agree with Bruce and some others.  I also want to say again that it is not fair to the officials going through the proper system to judge events.  I am definitely not for picking up officials from any Confederaton that have not done the work in order to be able to judge at this event.
Jeffry Armstrong votes NO
2015-01-02
Geoffrey Kee                     has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee                     is not voting at this time
2015-01-05
Geoffrey Kee                     has read the issue and has no comment
Geoffrey Kee                     abstains
2015-01-05
Bob Corson comments: Today is the last day for this issue.  I can extend it a few more days.
Kuno needs an answer as if this issue does not pass, he will have to withdraw the proposal and there will be no U21 Championships this year.
I asked if there might be additional funding found to support 2 more judges, but I think that we cannot count on that.
Please vote.
Thank you.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2015-01-05
Wayne Briant comments: I am a non voting member and new to this panel, but I cant see why this is a big problem. 
I totally understand why organizers of such events can not cover all the costs associated with running these events and I am thankful for the contributions they do to meet the obligations they can. I certainly see no reason to put a the event at ransom that it be cancelled. We need to remember that these events need to be ran and we need to find a way to meet the requirements and help out the organizers.

We merely need to ask for 2 extra trick judges to nominate to judge tricks at the under 21 worlds with no expenses covered. My wife will nominate and can do womens. I know there is several other rated judges around the world that would volunteer to cover the trick event only. Some Judges would already be attending. 

I am not suggesting we change the level or standard of Judges, they will be required to meet or be above the standard of a Pan Am judge as to cover Jeffrey\'s concern.

I certainly think that we have bigger problems at hand right now with the Junior Worlds official practice started and no official Mastercraft boats. 

2015-01-05
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: Thanks Wayne, my wife (Nozie Sulaiman qualified in IWWF exam by Maureen Wright GBR) can also be there without expenses except F&B and judge Tricks Men as her daughter is competing in Tricks Women. 
2015-01-06
Glen Williams comments: I am in Peru and Internet not great so tough to communicate . I vote no to reduce amount of judges. I believe we are asking to much of our judges to work full time without break for 3 days and deliver a judging standard worthy of a world championships . 
I am sure we can find a way to make this event happen with a full compliment of judges , as suggested by Wayne there will be judges on site not requiring accommodation and meals paid for that can fill in to ensure we have 5 judges calling tricks and that judges can get a few breaks . 
Alternatively the entry fee would only need to be lifted by maybe $ 25 / skier to cover the expense of the 2 judges that the organisers wish to trim from their budget .
Seems crazy to have the threat of losing a world champs over less than $2000 , so regardless of the outcome of this vote lets just find a way to make Spain in July happen for the good of the sport .
Glen Williams votes NO
2015-01-06
Bob Corson comments: Unfortunately, a consequence of this is that the next organizer will say why should I pay for 9 judges when for the U21 you accepted fewer and used local and volunteer judges.
The option we have is if we vote NO, I can still sign the agreement that says the organizer pays for 5 judges and then we must figure out how to guarantee that there will be qualified judges there that can be used.  However, we must also recognize that it will be a serious commitment on the part of any volunteer judge to fill in.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2015-01-06
Esteban Siegert comments: i believe that there will be an issue with three judges on the panel for tricks. The consequences to the skiers could be disastrous with a unweighted panel such as three judges. 
The bigger picture is why is this even happening? Why is there such a difficulty in finding suitable bids for World Title Events? 
2015-01-06
Jeffry Armstrong comments: This is really a catch 22..and we didn\'t cause this.
First of all, this is a team event.  so what happens in womens tricks effects what happens in mens tricks, as far as team score is concerned.  Every score in any event effect team scores. We never know what circumstances might happen in any event, I wouldn\'t want to take a chance of anything happening.
     Secondly, I believe we are opening Pandora\'s Box when we use other than \'appointed\' officials.  By using volunteers are we also saying that a Chief Judge at the next Worlds can look up and down the shoreline and see a really good trick caller and bring in that person to \'volunteer\' instead of using the judges he is given. those \'named\' to the event.(That will be the next thing we have to cover) Personally speaking, the TC needs to stick to its rules. Accepting a competition using other than what is listed in the rules is not our role.  We believe we have set the rules to the best for the athletes and the sport.  This seems ridiculous that we are talking about such a small amount of money compared to the whole picture of the money being spent.  There are certain things that will follow, if we do this.  If we want to change the rules for all Worlds, then, lets do it. If we still think our rules are good and the most fair, then.....each person has to decide.
Jeffry Armstrong votes NO
2015-01-06
Bob Corson comments: Well, we are at a very concerning point.  We have a tournament that will attract about 80 athletes.  If the entry fee was $300, then the total income is $24,000.  The sanction fee is $21,000.  They have proposed an entry fee of $250 (which includes lunch on site) so they are losing money.  Contrast this to the 35+ where there were 300 skiers with an entry fee of $270 for an income of $81,000.  These non-Open Championships do not require the level of support that the Open Championships with meeting and congress requirements.  Of course the financial arrangement is more complicated because they also can have sponsors or government funds.  The budget for these tournaments way exceeds the skier entry income.  The organizer owns the commercial rights, but they have to be converted into sponsorship dollars or commercial village booth rentals, etc.  Can the organizer make enough money to make it worth the effort?

In the end, the skiers and Federations have to pay for it.  Is it worth it to have a U21 title? to the skier?  to the Federation?  Federations may get government support if they can demonstrate the ability to get titles or finals positions.  Maybe we need to combine the U21 and the Junior if we can\'t get organizers who want to put these tournaments on.  We could shoot for the 2016 U21/Junior combined.
Unfortunately, we are out of time in that we need to proceed or cancel within the next week.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2015-01-06
Bruce Cockburn comments: I think the entry fee should be $300 and the extra $3500 pays for 2 extra Judges for this tournament 
As for combining the Juniors and U21 I think it is worth looking at 
we would have to look at how it would work and it would be better done at a face to face meeting is our meeting next September to late for a 2016 tournament
maybe we could agree to the concept before and set the rules at our september meeting
Bruce Cockburn is not voting at this time
2015-01-06
Candido Moz comments: Please can we recap the situation?
2011 Under-21 World Championships - 87 competitors, 50 Trickers + 24 in finals
2013 Under-21 World Championships - 84 competitors, 51 Trickers + 24 in finals
I agree that the Championships has to be Judged by appointed Officials and not relay on voluntary Official presents on site, but
I do believe 5 Judges can manage to Judge this amongst of skiers, and if needed Ass. Chief Judge can help.
In slalom and Jump you will need 3 Judges;
In Tricks you need 5 Judges calling Tricks, you do not need a boat Judge as there will be always a video operator in the boat, but you do need two timers, this is where you can use Qualify Officials available on site under the Chief Judge supervision.
Anyhow if the WTC believe we need one or two more Judges as the championships will be run in E&A I can contact Ricardo and explain our perplexity ant try to find a valid agreement.

Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2015-01-06
Larry Gisler comments: Probably in the future we can increase the team members to 6 , that  mean more skiers more entry,s
2015-01-06
Peter Person comments: On the basic issue I have to stay with five judges. If it is too much work that will emerge later as well if officials decline appointments.
Peter Person votes NO
2015-01-07
Bob Corson comments: OK, it is decided that we will keep the current rule requiring 5 calling judges in place for a World Championships.
In the comments it seems that although it is certainly possible that the judges can all be used for the trick event, it will be a burden on the judging staff.  I would like to take Candido up on his offer to work with the organizers to have them invite at least 2 more appointed judges.
I will meet with Kuno in Peru to discuss the issue.  However, at that time we must move forward if there is to be a Championship.  I think that most everyone wants the Championship to happen, but does not want to reduce the panel to only 5 judges.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Ryan Dodd - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah - Commented
Larry Gisler - Commented
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Candido Moz - voted Yes
Inessa Potes - Commented
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted Yes
Felix Loreto - Commented
Geoffrey Kee - Abstained
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Wayne Briant - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - voted No
Jeffry Armstrong - voted No
Glen Williams - voted No
Peter Person - voted No
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Bob Corson
Robin Wright
Jacinta Carroll*
Stian Lilleberg
Sergio Font*
Javier Julio
Nigel Talamo
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Ricardo Botas
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
Robert Ritter
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*