IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 385
Regina Jaquess Slalom Record Application
Date Opened 2014-06-13
Date Closed 2019-09-01
See all other issues
Here is the issue

I have received the record application for Regina Jaquess recent potential record performance.

I put some of the files on line at:
http://www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Jaquess3.25@10.25/index.php

The video received was in the 4 camera format so I need to do further processing as well as the end course.  I did a series of captures at the buoy for reference.
The application shows applying for 3.5 and it was scored that way during  the tournament.  The emails I received said that the application was for 3.25.  There was a split decision among the judges.
I wanted to at least get this to you while I do further processing as I have time today.
-------------------------------------------
2014-06-13
Kuno Ritschard has read the issue and has no comment
2014-06-13
Nigel Talamo comments: Is there a reason that no shock tube was used? If not mandatory any more, should the world rules be changed? 
Nigel Talamo is not voting at this time
2014-06-13
Glen Williams has read the issue and has no comment
Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2014-06-13
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah has read the issue and has no comment
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah is not voting at this time
2014-06-14
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2014-06-15
Brian Woolley comments: Looks like a 1/4 to me. I think we should consider requiring the video direct from the camera for record review. The wireless feed is often, as in this case, quite degraded.
Brian
2014-06-15
Gill Hill has read the issue and has no comment
2014-06-15
Jeffry Armstrong has read the issue and has no comment
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2014-06-16
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah has read the issue and has no comment
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah is not voting at this time
2014-06-16
Esteban Siegert has read the issue and has no comment
2014-06-17
Felix Loreto has read the issue and has no comment
2014-06-17
Candido Moz comments: For me it looks 3,25
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2014-06-17
Bob Corson comments: I have added the path measurement files and graphs.  Note on the 10.25 pass I continued measuring after Regina fell at buoy 4.  Interesting to note that the boat drifted right without the skier\'s countering pull.  As you can see, the path is acceptable in both cases.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2014-06-18
Jeffry Armstrong comments: My score would be 3.25
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2014-06-19
Jeffry Armstrong has read the issue and has no comment
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2014-06-20
Inessa Potes has read the issue and has no comment
2014-06-23
Bob Corson comments: I can see an argument for ½ in that she held on to the handle after the ski was past the buoy and her trajectory ended her inside the buoy line which seems to indicate that she crossed the buoy line in skiing position.  If it was ¼ her trajectory would have had her continuing away from the center line.  At 10.25 how far outside the buoy can you be when you are 5’5”.
However, 1/4 can also be supported.  Can everyone see the video or do I need to put it on youtube?
If everyone has seen it, I think it is time to vote.
Thank you.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2014-06-23
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I would like to see on utube to if it is any better than what I saw. It was right at the screen edge and I wanted to see more
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2014-06-23
Nigel Talamo comments: Bob, could you, or anyone else, please clarify the situation regarding shocktubes. (10.04i). No shocktube was used here so do scores still count?
Nigel Talamo is not voting at this time
2014-06-23
Bob Corson comments: Per requests, I put the videos on YouTube
ec
http://youtu.be/vzMp2JPECvQ

boat
http://youtu.be/WnXx9f7LSeo
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2014-06-24
Peter Person comments: I have only seen the still frames and can\'t say yes or no to the 1/2. It could go either way. The handle is retained but the view really can\'t confirm whether the turn in has crossed the line. The second video \"boat\" does not work. I get \"This video is a duplicate of a previously uploaded video\".
Peter Person is not voting at this time
2014-06-24
Glen Williams comments: I can see end course video which is fine .. I\'m also unable to see video of Regina rounding bouys . Which I obviously need to judge please 
Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2014-06-24
Bob Corson comments: Sorry, I had already uploaded it - here is the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBdSNOiNcM
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2014-06-25
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: I like to address Nigel\'s twice enquired \"shock tube\" issue. This rule is MANDATORY as stated in the rules and also repeated by recorded minutes of 1999 Milan, 2007 Linz & 2010 Milan WTC meetings. Are we looking at an exception here in Regina\'s application? I have no doubt she totally deserves the possible new world record but this issue may well be a screw-up by the Homnologator and perhaps the Chief Judge as well and I believe they might well have failed Regina. Surely we are not saying that if a jumper going over a ramp in an event without a helmet can be allowed a world record application in the same way here for a skier who had deemed to have flouted a rule, albeit, the transgressions in both cases are not deemed a performance enhanced transgression! I think we should pass this application back to the skier to seek further clarification why she was allowed to ski by the Homologator or the Chief Judge with this rule transgression, with due sympathies to Regina. May I too be enlightened? Thanks. 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah is not voting at this time
2014-06-25
Candido Moz comments: What do others think about shock tube? only Nigel and now Hanifah has raised the point, I belive they are correct and we should discuss this first.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2014-06-25
Bob Corson comments: I have made inquiries about this issue and am awaiting an answer.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2014-06-25
Jeffry Armstrong comments: Could we hear from the athletes, please?  How many tournaments are not using shock tubes.  I, as a judge, for even World Cups have had to search to find whether the sponsor/organizer has provided them and try to find one from a skier at the event.  I actually wouldn\'t think that an athlete that is capable of setting a record has their mind on a shock tube.  It could be possible that she didn\'t even think about that when she was on the dock.  Certainly, I don\'t know, but in any case, it is the officials that are responsible for this action in my mind.  I agree it is a rule and is mandatory.
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2014-06-25
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: Yes, Jeffry, I too do not think Regina should be faulted but the officials know that this is a R event and the athlete or her handlers should know. May we find out if the Homologator did actually stay at site throughout the tournament period (as again required by the rules) and if he did not were his duties delegated and to whom. The boat judge and the boat driver are to some degree also culpable as they should know the rules. It is unfortunate that officials failed to do the duty to protect the status of the event for which it had been homologated upon thereby putting great athletes\' performances in jeopardy. 

I suggest that the TC members deliberate: 
1.0 If the event should be exempted from using a shock tube for slalom on a fait accompli basis or not.
2.0 If actions are to be taken on those responsible or not. 
3.0 Following the above if exempted whether the precedent so created will also be applied to future similar transgressions whether by the officials or by the athletes or by the organisers irrespective whether the event is homologated R or L, irrespective of where the event is run and irrespective of who the athlete is and whatever performance had been achieved.

Whatever decision this TC is to make this will definitely not be a pleasant decision for members here. 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah is not voting at this time
2014-06-25
Jorge Naser comments: If I search a little, I think I can find other world records boat videos showing no shock tubes (a friend of mine told me somethink about this same situation in a previous world record). Knowing this, I think we are also responsible for what is happening. We did not do anything before, should we apply a different standard now? The skier is not responsible for this, and his/her performance does not depend on it. In my opinion the skier should not be punished for this mistake.
2014-06-25
Esteban Siegert comments: in my experience the shock tube is used until 39.5 off, because after that it gets on the way of the rope, bimini and windshield at 34 mph.  i cant speak for what it was done at this particular event, can we ask the homologator?
2014-06-25
Bob Corson comments: The shock tube is in the rules to provide a safe environment for the persons in the boat.  It has noting to do with the performance of the skier and should not affect the deliberation on a record.
If a shock tube was not used in the tournament then the boat officials need to be put on notice, as well as the Homologator and Chief Judge.  What were they thinking?
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2014-06-25
Aaron Larkin comments: I am yet to experience the idea of removing a shock tube when a skier is attempting a 1075m or shorter. In my experience the use of the shock tube has always been mandatory of which is the Homologator and chief judges responsibility to unsure. I stand to corrected, but it\'s Interesting to note that the boat used didn\'t have a bimini so no need to remove the shock tube.
2014-06-25
Felix Loreto comments: The shocktube is mandatory, not for performance but for safety reasons....but still mandatory.
The shocktube will not aid or diminish a skier´s performance.
Both boat judge and driver knew there was no shocktube and that it was their own safety involved. I believe they are the ones to give specific resons for not using it.
I believe regina´s record application should be accepted.
2014-06-25
Esteban Siegert comments: i don\'t think the skier would benefit from not having a shock tube.  it is on the rules and should be the OFFICIALS responsibility to assure the rules are met.  Thats why there are entry fees to tournaments, so the organizer can ensure the rules and criteria needed for a world record are met.  

I have seen it before where tournament are run without the shock tube,   I asked why before and that\'s what i was told, that the shock tube got on the way at 41 off (i would not know, never been at 41 in a slalom ski!!) but once again i don\'t see how the SKIER can be responsible for the oversight from the Officials.  Unless she (the skier) requested not having a shock tube, i cant see how she (The skier) can be penalized,
2014-06-25
Nigel Talamo comments: Thank you to everyone who has expanded on my initial worry concerning the lack of shocktube. It is a slippery slope to go down if we accept rule infringements for the sake of convenience. Officials are as much a part of skiing as the athletes and organisers. Here, unfortunately, the athlete was let down. It may or may not make a difference having 10% of your rope covered with a shocktube but there is no doubt that the rule says it is mandatory. Aaron, thank you for your comment which is so valuable because you are more often on 10.25 than anyone here. 
Nigel Talamo is not voting at this time
2014-06-26
Peter Person comments: Finally saw video. It is so poor, really should have the direct non-transmitted version. I think I\'d lean to 3.5. Also with respect to all and the conversation about tubes, I have to say if tubes are an issue the place to start is to remove probably dozens or hundreds of performances from the ranking list, and not single out this one performance.
Peter Person is not voting at this time
2014-06-26
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: Wow, that IS a revelation Peter. Never knew that, seriously, never knew that! All the time I thought rules in sport are meant to be followed in all my 38 years of making a living through sports and raising 2 families from sports. We had better start removing all the rules which we had imposed on the poor third world countries in which can hardly afford many such costs of following so many rules that I can easily think of so that we are allowed to progress with all the 1st world waterskiing countries. Besides this is indeed going to be a bad example to our athletes that we are seen to \"condone\" breaking of rules at whims whether performance enhancement rules or not. Furthermore, Peter, I never said I do not want to vote \"Yes\" for Regina so I am wondering who you are referring to in respect of throwing out the record application. \"Wow\" too that merely sweeping this under the carpet that this had indeed happened so many times before would really make our sport look bad in the eyes of all other sports. I am surprised honestly. I vote YES for 3.25 with a caveat that this sorry state of affairs cannot be allowed to continue otherwise this TC better disregard all rules in place now which are non-performance enhancement in nature! 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah votes YES
2014-06-26
Candido Moz comments: I belive we should go step by step:
1) Accepting the pending record even if not made according the rules (shok tubes missing);
2) If yes we should call a score;
3) Actions to be taken to Official for not respecting the rules.

If we made an error in the past (like approving record not performed according to the rules) we do not have to repeat it.  
I am not against removing shock tubes or any others options, but if there are rules they need to be respected. If we accept using only some part of the rules, which are the one we need to apply and which are not?...... I remember a slalom record not approved because they forgot to install the boat camera or run out of end course tape(someone said bad luck).
I do believe if a skier make a performance the score obtained must be approved, she/he train hard and spend money to get it. So if we (as Officials) made a mistake we should not penalize the skiers, but on the others hand, we must be credible and give credibility to our sport, and I also believe some actions must be taken against who did not do his job propely.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2014-06-26
Larry Gisler comments: Are the rules writing for apply ?
For sure is not a skier fault ! ,and if is a official\'s fault they need a discipline  letter at list . 
2014-06-26
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I agree with Candido 100% I vote yes for the record and want to look at video once again before determine the actual score(if the utube is working now)
Jeffry Armstrong votes YES
2014-06-26
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: I also agree with Jeffry and Candido. I believe that the skiers performanve should not be penalised because the officials were not following the shock tube rule. I have difficulty to give a score (3,25 or 3,5) due to the video. Is it possible to find the boat camera video?
Dimos Alexopoulos is not voting at this time
2014-06-26
Glen Williams comments: As far as Regina\'s score is concerned I am leaning toward 3.5 as although picture quality is poor I feel there is enough evidence to support the fact she has turned back inside the line of the balls whilst still in a skiing position . There is a little bit of a benefit of the doubt factored in my decision as it\'s tough to see with picture we are judging off. As to the shock tube . I am new to this position and not as qualified to comment as the rest of you who have been in this job much longer . However my opinion is that this is an officials error ( presuming Regina has not insisted tube be removed ) I very much doubt the lack of a shock tube has enhanced Regina\'s performance. The tube as I understand it is fitted for boat grew safety and this is a whole other issue than whether Regina\'s record should be approved or not . I am not prepared to deny her a record because the officials have made this error . Going forward we do need to sort this out however as we can\'t have some performances requiring a tube and some not . 
Glen Williams is not voting at this time
2014-06-26
Bruce Cockburn comments: Candido has the right idear we need to work through the steps

1) Accepting the pending record even if not made according the rules (shok tubes missing);
2) If yes we should call a score;and change our rules to make shock tubes a recommendation not compulsory
3) Actions to be taken to Official for not respecting the rules.

If a rule is not being applied we need to find out why it is not being applied and if necessary change our rules to what is needed

so in my opinion we need to vote on weather to accept this record application or not I would support accepting this application if we look at changing our rules with regard to shock tubes
Bruce Cockburn is not voting at this time
2014-06-29
Candido Moz comments: I am in favor of accepting the record
My score will be 3,25
After the information regarding not complying the rules, some action against the involved Officials.
Change the rules if needed
Candido Moz votes YES
2014-06-29
Bob Corson comments: OK - let\'s proceed.
1. Please vote yes or no for the record so we can get that out of the way
2. We will then vote on 1/4 or 1/2 - I have asked for boat recorded video
3. The we will deal with the officials and shock tube situation.
Thank you - please vote
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2014-06-29
Peter Person comments: To be clear, will the vote for the record (#1) mean it stands regardless of #3?
Peter Person is not voting at this time
2014-06-30
Peter Person comments: Yes, for #1.
Peter Person votes YES
2014-06-30
Candido Moz comments: Yes on item 1
Candido Moz votes YES
2014-06-30
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: Yes for the record (item 1)
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
2014-06-30
Glen Williams comments: I vote yes for the record 
Glen Williams votes YES
2014-06-30
Nigel Talamo has read the issue and has no comment
Nigel Talamo votes YES
2014-06-30
Bruce Cockburn comments: I will vote yes for 3.25
Bruce Cockburn votes YES
2014-06-30
Aaron Larkin comments: 3.25 for me
2014-07-01
Candido Moz comments: score for me is 3.25
Candido Moz votes YES
2014-07-01
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: Score 3,25 for me
Dimos Alexopoulos votes YES
2014-07-01
Bob Corson comments: OK, looking at the previous text, Jeffry voted for 3.25 and Hanifah voted for 3.25. Bruce, Candido and Dimos all voted for 3.25.  Would the remaining voting members now declare 3.25 or 3.5.
Thank you.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2014-07-01
Nigel Talamo comments: 3.25 from me
Nigel Talamo votes YES
2014-07-01
Glen Williams comments: I vote for record with a score of 3.25. Glen 
Glen Williams votes YES
2014-07-03
Bob Corson comments: OK - so it is approved at 3.25.
I will inform Regina and post a headline.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Ryan Dodd - Commented
Felix Loreto - Commented
Inessa Potes - Commented
Jorge Naser - Commented
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah - voted Yes
Larry Gisler - Commented
Jeffry Armstrong - voted Yes
Candido Moz - voted Yes
Peter Person - voted Yes
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted Yes
Glen Williams - voted Yes
Nigel Talamo - voted Yes
Bruce Cockburn - voted Yes
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Bob Corson
Robin Wright
Stian Lilleberg
Sergio Font*
Javier Julio
Geoffrey Kee*
Wayne Briant
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Ricardo Botas
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
Robert Ritter
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*