IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 345
Regina Jaquess 3.5@10.25 record application
Date Opened 2013-07-19
Date Closed 2019-09-01
See all other issues
Here is the issue

We have received an application for 3.5@10.25 for Regina Jaquess.
The application form is on this link:
www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Jaquess3.50@10.25/Regina_Jaquess_Record_Dossier_Complete.pdf

I have analyzed the path which is shown in these documents:
www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Jaquess3.50@10.25/39endcourseresults.txt
www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Jaquess3.50@10.25/41endcourseresults.txt
www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Jaquess3.50@10.25/Regina10.75path.jpg
www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Jaquess3.50@10.25/Regina10.25path.jpg

The path is within the required limits of the rules and all other technical aspects are acceptable.

The judges all scored her with 3.5 buoys.

I am sending by email the sequence of captured frames of Regina at buoy 4.
I am asking the council to vote on this issue as it is clearly a judgement call that is needed.  There are 3 possible calls here, 3.0, 3.25, and 3.5.
Does the ski cross the C-D line?
Does she graze or ride over the buoy?

Thank you for your help and judgement.
Please comment and vote.
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2013-07-19
Larry Gisler comments: Hello Bob can you tell us please if the buoy\'s are soft (goode buoy\'s).
2013-07-19
Bob Corson comments: Important point - I have emailed the homologator.  I will also email Goode to get specs on that buoy.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-07-19
Bob Corson comments: According to Jim Thompson, the homologator, they were the traditional type buoys, not the Goode buoys.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-07-20
Brian Woolley has read the issue and has no comment
2013-07-20
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2013-07-20
Felix Loreto has read the issue and has no comment
2013-07-20
Bob Corson comments: Well, I have looked at this about 100 times and I think that we have to fall back on the fundamental rule description of slalom - \"The contestant shall follow the tow boat through the entrance gate of the slalom course (and) pass around the outside of any or all 6 buoys and proceed through the far end gate\".  I can\'t see that the skier passes around the outside of the buoy.  
In pictures b4-3 and b4-4 it looks like the ski passes over the center of the buoy and sinks it.  In b4-3, part of the buoy is visible just ahead of her binding.  In b4-4, the buoy is no even with her front leg.  In b4-5 the buoy is no longer visible.  If she was going around the buoy, it would seem that the buoy would be visible even with her back leg.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-07-20
Gill Hill comments: I agree with what Bob has said, she appears to sink the buoy and for me the ski never appears to be going on the outside of the buoy.   so in terms of the original question I don\'t think she ever crossed the C-D line and therefore I have to give 3 buoys.  Maybe someone has a different argument which I am absolutely willing to listen to.  For the time being I am not voting. 
Gill Hill is not voting at this time
2013-07-20
Larry Gisler comments: The problem can be for future witch part of the ski decide the 1/4 , 1/2 or 1;  for me until today is the front binding  .
2013-07-20
Brian Woolley comments: I did note receive the email. It is possible to post full resolution video for a few seconds either side of #4?
2013-07-20
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I am coming from where Brian is.  I would like to see video and put it all together.........can we do this at meeting?  I know it is a long time, but
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2013-07-20
Peter Person comments: For me its the rule as Bob quoted, the \"ski to pass around the outside\". I even noted the shadow of the ski on the ball in the second shot, and in the third it appears to me that no part of the ball is on the right side of the ski. I await other comments.
Peter Person is not voting at this time
2013-07-20
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: On this issue page, in the right column outside the dialogue box, it says: 

Voted
Larry Gisler
Brian Woolley
Hannu Rintanen
Felix Loreto 

Have they voted? 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah is not voting at this time
2013-07-21
Brian Woolley comments: I have not voted. I have commented. I am an alternate so I don\'t have a vote.
May be a minor bug.
2013-07-21
Hannu Rintanen comments: I am getting these messages as a role of E&A TC Member without voting rights. When I have read an Issue, and not click \"Accept my comments and vote\" button, I will receive an email once day to go look and see the Issue until it is closed. That is the only way avoid to get these emails at this moment.
2013-07-21
Bob Corson comments: If you are a non-voting member and you comment, it lists you has having voted.  It probably should say voted/commented.  The original design did not anticipate monitoring members as we have now.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-07-21
Bob Corson comments: The video is posted at
www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Jaquess3.50@10.25/Regina_41off.MTS
it is 100MB
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-07-23
Gill Hill comments: Thank you for putting the video on line Bob.  Unfortunately it is no clearer to me from the video.   I still think the photos show clearly that she did NOT round the buoy, she sunk it.   
Gill Hill is not voting at this time
2013-07-24
Kuno Ritschard has read the issue and has no comment
2013-07-24
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: thank you all for the explanations of who had \"voted\". if i must vote now i would vote \"no\" but since there is a suggestion to leave for later discussion at the TC meeting upon availability of the video, i shall not vote now. 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah is not voting at this time
2013-07-25
Bob Corson comments: I converted the file from MTS to MPG so it should be easily accessible.  The file is 6 MB and is at:
www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Jaquess3.50@10.25/Regina_41off.mpg
Due to the conversion, the picture is smaller.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-07-26
Candido Moz comments: At the moment I have to score 3, but I am happy to wait the Cile meeting.
Candido Moz is not voting at this time
2013-07-28
Bob Corson comments: I note this issue expires in two days.
The video has been made available along with frame captures.
Thank you.

Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-07-28
Georgi Renosto comments: From my point of view, in picture 4-4 the gravity center of the skier passes outside the center of the bouy, right in the middle of the bindings the skier seems to be outside of the bouy, only on that moment.
2013-07-28
Felix Loreto comments: Going around the buoy does not mean going around the center (vertical axis) of the buoy, it is going around the entire buoy. The bindings and any part of the body can touch or graze the buoy provided the ski has cleared the buoy all around the turn.
2013-07-29
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: i have watched the high resolution video many times and am not convinced that the ski had at any point rounded the buoy number 4. i agree with felix that the rule states clearly that the ski has to go around the buoy and not on top of the buoy. i would score this pass to be 3.0 buoys. to me i do not need to wait till chile to discuss this. unless there are any new evidence to prove otherwise, my vote for now is \"no\". thank you all. 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah votes NO
2013-07-29
Jorge Naser comments: I think we have 2 stages in our decision. The first one is to decide if she did miss buoy #4 or not. If she did, then we should give her 3 buoys. If she did not, then we should decide if she did 3.25 or 3.50 buoys.

Rule 14.06 says: 
A miss or \"Riding Over\"
It is a miss to ride inside a buoy or outside the entrance or end gate or to ride over, straddle or jump over a buoy; but there is no penalty for grazing a buoy with a ski or part of the body. \"Riding over\" shall be defined as hitting a buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from it position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a buoy less severely shall be considered as \"grazing.\"

So the first question is:
Did she ride over (defined as hitting a buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from it position or temporarily sink it), straddle or jump over buoy #4? Or did she pass around the outside of buoy #4 just grazing it (defined as Hitting a buoy less severely)?
2013-07-29
Candido Moz comments: I already comment above for me the score is 3, so I have to vote NO
Candido Moz votes NO
2013-07-29
Peter Person comments: I see only a score of 3 as possible.
Peter Person votes NO
2013-07-29
Gill Hill comments: As said in my response of 23 July, I also can only score 3.
Gill Hill votes NO
2013-07-29
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: I looked many times the video (even in very slow motion) and the pictures Bob send us and I don\'t agree that bouy No 4 was scored. So my score is 3 bouys.
Dimos Alexopoulos votes NO
2013-07-29
Bruce Cockburn comments: I like belive she sunk the buoy so I could only give her 3
Bruce Cockburn votes NO
2013-07-30
Murray Eade comments: Nothing different to offer. I would score 3.
Murray Eade votes NO
2013-07-30
Bob Corson comments: I notified Regina about the results of our discussion. She wrote back asking that we consider her points.  I am copying her letter here and my response:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob, 
Thanks for letting me know, however this is not the news I was expecting. I have a question for you or the board regarding the decision. I know that you have been around skiing for a number of years and I\'m sure many of the members of the board have as well.  Drawing upon that experience and knowing that these were real buoys , do you not think that if I hit or ran over the buoy at 41 off that there would not have been a crash.  As I reviewed the video, and I agree that I was close, I noticed that my ski never changed its course in the water through the turn.  If you hit the buoy the ski will deflect in its course.  As I watched this in slow motion, I did not observe a change in the path of my ski.  I feel like if I hit the buoy at 41 off I likely would have hurt myself.  I know I got outside the buoy and believe that the board should consider and closely evaluate the path and attitude of the ski during the turn.  I certainly understand that it\'s a more difficult decision but I feel it is worth additional discussion.  I appreciate the task that you have and certainly appreciate you giving me notice regarding the record. Please note what I have said as a senior pan am judge and maybe take a closer look.  I have also seen video from the shore (which I know you can\'t use) but there is no orange showing on the video taken right at 4 ball. So I certainly feel as if it deserves some further discussion and I can tell you if this were a Goode Bubble buoy I would understand the concerns but given this was a traditional buoy I think the fact that I skied away is evidence that I skied around it   Thanks for your consideration

Regina 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is what I responded:
Regina,
I have attached the captured frames from the boat video.  I will describe the thinking of the Council based on these pictures:
B4-2 – members noted that the shadow of the ski is visible on the buoy – implying that the ski was above the buoy 
B4-3 – here the ski seems to be going over the buoy – the graphics on the front of the ski are fully visible.  If the ski was on the outside of the buoy the graphics would be obscured by it.
B4-4 – in this frame the buoy seems to be being sunk by the ski
B4-5 – in this frame the buoy is not visible and it seems like it should be if the ski were passing around the buoy

That being said, I will present your note to the Council as well as my response.

Bob

Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-07-31
Ageliki Andriopoulou comments: Just an idea: Why dont we ask the judges we use for tricks records to judge Reginas slalom also? 
Ageliki Andriopoulou is not voting at this time
2013-07-31
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I believe that it is three also, but I wanted all of us to be on the same page because of the comments we were getting.........Like...
\"I\'ve looked at this 100 times......and the video is no clear......I looked at it many times......(even in very slow motion)
Jeffry Armstrong votes NO
2013-08-01
Aaron Larkin has read the issue and has no comment
2013-08-01
Bob Corson comments: Regina Replied to my return mail and I felt I should add it to the issue post.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your patience Bob. 
 
I appreciate your reply and the facts u pointed out which I believe are in line with what I said regarding the path of the ski had it hit the buoy. As I agree with the photos and your notes, at 41 off the ski does not reach the apex until the buoy at my height so I do appreciate your willingness to pass on my notes to the council 
With those thoughts in mind I hope you and the board will take another look and decide if there is truly enough evidence to dispute the call of the judges., which was reviewed in slow motion as well 
Thanks for your hard work on these matters 
Regina 
----------------------------------------------------
I have extended the deadline for a few days if anyone has anything to add further.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-08-06
Sergio Font has read the issue and has no comment
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Larry Gisler - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Felix Loreto - Commented
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Javier Julio - Commented
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah - voted No
Jorge Naser - Commented
Candido Moz - voted No
Peter Person - voted No
Gill Hill - voted No
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted No
Bruce Cockburn - voted No
Glen Williams - voted No
Jeffry Armstrong - voted No
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Sergio Font - Commented
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Bob Corson
Robin Wright
Ryan Dodd*
Stian Lilleberg
Nigel Talamo
Geoffrey Kee*
Wayne Briant
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Ricardo Botas
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
Robert Ritter
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*