IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 341
Malibu Open Rules Exception request
Date Opened 2013-06-10
Date Closed 2019-09-01
See all other issues
Here is the issue


This is the request as received from jerry Jackson on behalf of the organizers.

The Pro Ski Tour (LLC) and Malibu Boats is requesting the following Rule Exception for the 2013 Malibu Open Festival. 
 
Rule Exception: IWWF (Additional Rule #4)/ AWSA 10.05 G.
Official’s Conflict of Interest: Conflicts of interest, as defined by the following, shall not be permitted in Record Capability or Cash Prize tournaments.

Request: For rounds using dual boat (NOT head-to-head), the Conflict of Interest does not apply providing the driver with the conflict is not pulling the family member.  Example:  Rounds (rd 1) were we are using dual boats Chad would NOT pull his son (Tyler), Chris would pull him.  
However, when in Head-to-Head, this rule exception would not apply. (Chad would NOT drive the event if Tyler is in it). 

We have polled ALL the Open Men Skiers and they strongly agree with this request, They all want Chad Scott to drive, and they all want Tyler Scott (Chad's son) to ski in the OPEN event.  In addition, the boat path for all pulls are monitored full time by an official and with this request, Chad will NOT be pulling Tyler.
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Comments please and vote
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2013-06-10
Kuno Ritschard has read the issue and has no comment
2013-06-10
Bob Corson comments: I note that in Wisconsin there are 3 Senior Drivers and there are 18 additional Senior drivers in the four adjacent states.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-06-10
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: In Asia we have much less judges and much less drivers and yet we all try to apply the conflict rule for even the non record capable events which are only homologated ranking lists L events. It is not a question, I feel, of whether the drivers or judges would be fair or not but rules are there to ensure that officials selected are seen to be fair. 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah is not voting at this time
2013-06-11
Aaron Larkin comments: No Problem
2013-06-11
Bob Corson comments: Just for the sake of argument, what if you were the last skier off the dock and the conflict skier\'s relative is the driver and the conflict skier is on the bubble to make the finals with a score that you almost always do better than.
Surprisingly you miss.  Is no one going to think maybe even for an instant that something funny might have happened even though it most certainly didn\'t. 
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-06-11
Gill Hill comments: It seems that what goes around comes around again and again.   The Conflict of Interest rule was introduced in the first instance for Elite and Cash Prize tournaments at the request of the athletes.  Now it would seem the athletes have changed their minds.  I hate this rule as you know, BUT I have found in the past that having parent drivers (more so than any other official) does lead to problems when the competition becomes intense - and I guess it will become intense.  I am not at all convinced it is necessary to make this exception. 
Gill Hill is not voting at this time
2013-06-11
Esteban Siegert has read the issue and has no comment
2013-06-12
Peter Person comments: To reflect on Bob\'s example and also Gill\'s remark about parents is exactly why rules about conflict of interest are needed. That way it is clear that no one should be put into a position that will have anyone else wondering about what happened, even if nothing actually did.

Peter Person is not voting at this time
2013-06-12
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2013-06-12
Felix Loreto comments: We have the same problema in latin America.
Most judges are skiers parents. No one else is about to get involved unless it is a former skier who´s children do not ski. It is hard, but we always avoid such situations. Come to the point where we have hired judges from the US for such reason.
US har far more judges and drivers tan Latin America, I believe it should be easy for AWSA to get non conflict judges for any event.
2013-06-14
Brian Woolley comments: Bob makes a very salient point. If we worry about confict of interest we must worry as much about disadvantage to a competitor as we do about advantage to a relative.
2013-06-14
Larry Gisler comments:  In my opinion The conflict of interest Rule is working well , I understand that water ski is a family sport, but the rule help  the Chief Judges and some protocols areas
2013-06-14
Bob Corson comments: Please record your votes - the tournament is 6/21 and we need to notify the organizers
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-06-14
Gill Hill comments: Well someone has to be first - why not me?   It seems the majority wish to stick with the conflict of interest rule, especially in this elite CP tournament.  So I will vote NO.
Gill Hill votes NO
2013-06-14
Bruce Cockburn comments: I agree with Gill I am voting No
Bruce Cockburn votes NO
2013-06-15
Bob Corson comments: Please try to record your vote today so that the organizers can take appropriate action if required.
Thank you.
Bob Corson is not voting at this time
2013-06-15
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: On the basis that should a final count of YES votes prevail eventually thus opening a floodgate of such rule exception applications in future, I have to vote \"no\". 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah votes NO
2013-06-15
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: The organizers must find a few officials without conflict to avoid any problem
Dimos Alexopoulos votes NO
2013-06-15
Candido Moz comments: I think the organizer should try to fine another driver
Candido Moz abstains
2013-06-15
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I was hoping NOT to have to write this letter.  I have been waiting for someone else to write.  

It is difficult when we are dealing with a double-edged sword!  In the US we say \'what\'s good for the goose......is good for the gander\".  

Last year in Mexico at the TC meeting, I asked about the driving at the E&A Championships. Gill, Candido and Dimos told me personally
(after I ask about it) that Ian Campbell drove Glenn, his son, in the competition.  I was specifically told by Candido that \'THEY felt good about it\'.
I guess meaning that they didn\'t think IAN would do anything out of order, BUT that is not what the Conflict of Interest rule is about.  YES. the organizer should have found other officials last year, but didn\'t....

NOW, to this issue.  This organizer is trying to do the right thing by ASKING and by MAKING SURE that this driver will not drive his own son, who probably not a real threat.

I think we should decide what the penalties are FIRST,if someone does go beyond this conflict of interest rule. I am a staunch believer in this rule and have fought for it over many years.  At this juncture, knowing that our members of the TC actually allowed this, as they were at the competition that\'s probably the largest in Europe, (and no report) and now vote NO on this issue, abstain, and say that the organizer should find another official......when the father is NOT going to drive his son. I am the first to say that PROBLEMS CAN HAPPEN with this, but at least this is NOT an actual event where a father drives for his son.

I vote YES for this, and ask how E&A can vote any other way.  If this doesn\'t PASS or WE DON\'T establish penalties, then, I guess organizers should just circumvent the Tournament Council and hope that no one finds out about it. 

Otherwise:
1. set penalties
2. Send out the info on the penalties, along with a further explanation that this type of conflict is also not acceptable.

I am happy to vote YES

Thank you,
Jeffry

Jeffry Armstrong votes YES
2013-06-15
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: Dear Jeffry, 

Great to hear from you. This is the first I hear of this rule not being respected. I had more than 2 years ago had a private email exchange with Bob on this topic and I lamented the situation in Asia whereby we can count supposedly properly qualified judges (with no exams ever done) with less than fingers on one hand and zero drivers qualified properly. 

He advised me to accept the spirit of this rule as important. I had tried to apply even when the events here in Asia are not records capable nor prize money events. 

So I guess that if your proposal is accepted \"with penalities\" we need to re-write this rule to state clearly that it is now \"acceptable to have conflict of interest but do not cross the line\" and there would be no need to apply for exceptions - do correct me if I am wrong. 

This would help Asia plenty I can assure all here. 

Meanwhile while the rule is as it is I feel my conscience is clear with a \"no\" vote and we do need a rule change with a re-write plus add penalties before this event is allowed to have \"conflict of interest\" especially given that there is hardly any problem in finding another driver irrespective of whether he drives his son or not. 

Thanks but sorry, 

Hanifah Yoong 
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah votes NO
2013-06-16
Murray Eade comments: I am against the conflict rule as it is written and have been for a long time as you all know. I believe we should sort it out once and for all in Chile.
Murray Eade votes YES
2013-06-18
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I figure now that the issue failed.  I am surprised that I am not the only one voting yes.

There is really a problem with conflict of interest..........I am at fault for not bringing the E&A issue to the TC table last fall and sorting it out. I simply forgot about it.    We do all have a responsibility to each other.  I apologize for making it seem that E&A are the only ones that have had issue. They are not.  I now know that Conflict of Interest is not working in all Regions.  I can site more examples because I have been asking around during all of this.  I really think that this issue on the table should have been voted exactly as it was............but, we have to set a penalty or let it be known there will be one.  We can\'t allow \'country\' to be a factor though because we wouldn\'t have anyone to drive, especially at Regional Championships. One would have to bring someone in from other Regions.....and monies that are derived from our NOCs is just like making it a Cash Prize event, not to mention if there are Elite points.  I don\'t pretend to know the answers, but I do know that this is a problem and if Malibu hadn\'t asked......we probably would have not known whether they did or didn\'t.   We have to make it fair for all.  I am with Murray now.  If we don\'t do something to make it work in ALL Regions, then, get rid of it.(At least I think that is where he is coming from.)  I really would like to know what a good survey of the athletes is...............about this.   Aaron voted \'no problem\'....was that the athlete vote in this instance? 
Jeffry Armstrong is not voting at this time
2013-06-18
Aaron Larkin comments: I voted \"no problem\" as my own opinion. Because I feel like there are enough drivers at the event so that Chad won\'t have to drive his son. I would have thought this instance was pretty basic. Times where parents are driving there children IS an issue I agree.
2013-06-20
Sergio Font has read the issue and has no comment
Non-voting members who have
commented and
Voting members who have Voted
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Ryan Dodd - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Felix Loreto - Commented
Larry Gisler - Commented
Gill Hill - voted No
Bruce Cockburn - voted No
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah - voted No
Dimos Alexopoulos - voted No
Candido Moz - Abstained
Jeffry Armstrong - voted Yes
Glen Williams - voted Yes
Sergio Font - Commented
Non-voting members who have
not commented and
Voting members(*) who have not Voted
Bob Corson
Robin Wright
Stian Lilleberg
Javier Julio
Nigel Talamo
Geoffrey Kee*
Wayne Briant
Donal Connolly
Paul Fong
Corey Vaughn
Ricardo Botas
Santiago Correa
Mario Pigozzi
Richard Carlson
Robert Ritter
James Timothy
Georgi Renosto
Dana Garcia*
Peter Frei
Martin Kolman*
Gavin Kelly*