IWSF TC Issue

IWSF Tournament Council Issue: 315
Will Asher potential record
Date Opened 2012-11-27
Date Closed 2019-09-01
See all other issues
Here is the issue


It seems that Will Asher tied the World Record at
code of competition:13S079R         
code of site: USAS0275
name of competition:Swiss Bonus
Date:11/11/2012    11/11/2012
Venue:Swiss Ski School Clermont, Fl

The homologator - Eddie Roberts - sent it to the AWSA Technical Chair - Jerry Jackson - who is reviewing it and will send to me shortly.


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2012-11-27
Esteban Siegert has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-27
Felix Loreto has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-27
Kuno Ritschard has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-27
Brian Woolley has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-27
Bruce Cockburn has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-27
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-27
Aaron Larkin has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-28
Larry Gisler has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-28
Gill Hill comments: Well that would make up for the one he missed out on earlier in the year.   I guess we await the completed paperwork?   
2012-11-28
Hannu Rintanen has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-28
Inessa Potes has read the issue and has no comment
2012-11-29
Candido Moz comments: Hope all papework and data are OK
2012-11-29
Jeffry Armstrong comments: I agree with Candido in that I hope all record apps are complete.  Just as a side note, I am wondering if this was an Elite competition where different boats were used in the round? I heard that it was from \'ball of spray\'. can anyone reply with knowledge on this?
2012-12-01
Sergio Font has read the issue and has no comment
2012-12-01
Murray Eade has read the issue and has no comment
2012-12-02
Peter Person has read the issue and has no comment
2012-12-03
Bob Corson comments: Unfortunately, I have bad news regarding this application.  I received the end course files from Jerry Jackson, AWSA Tech Chairman.  He indicated that his review indicated driving problems.  I reviewed the files and agree.  I have put the relevant files in the following directory for your reference:
http://www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Asher2.0@9.75/
The two specific problems are with buoy 6 at 10.25 and a cumulative driving error at 9.75. 
Specific issue discussion:
10.25
There is a capture of the end course at buoy 6
Buoy6-10.25.jpg
Captures showing the path captures
10.25pass1.jpg
10.25pass2.jpg     shows both path2 and path1 overlayed in blue
10.25pass1.txt
10.25pass2.txt
Cumulative error at 9.75
Buoy1-9.75.jpg
Buoy2-9.75.jpg
Both boat positions individually are in tolerance but because of the movement from left to right, the cumulative error is exceeded.
You can see in the path tracings that the boat goes side to side following the skier.
9.75pass3.jpg
9.75pass4.jpg
I took 4 tracings.  As you can see from the text files, pass 2 did not exceed the cumulative.  So, it is very close.  I also note that the granularity of the system in this position is 0.02m so you could push this and say there is small possibility that you couldn\'t absolutely prove that the limit was exceeded.
However, the 10.25 pass buoy 6 is clearly exceeded and beyond the system granularity.
It is very frustrating to have to deal with these issues.  I have written to Will to inform him of these findings and that I would put it before the TC for discussion.
2012-12-03
Felix Loreto comments: This is really sad, but we have rules we must go by.
Will is capable of doing it again, let?s just wait.
2012-12-04
Gill Hill comments: Sad is the right word - again!
My next concern is was all the driving this bad?  If so are we taking those scores to the RL???

2012-12-04
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah has read the issue and has no comment
2012-12-08
Brian Woolley comments: In addition to the 2 rule transgressions mentioned by Bob, I would be most interested to know what others think about the application of the part of rule 14.11 that says:- 
\"If any part of the boat deviates outside the bounds of the boat gates, the boat judge shall award....\" 
to this case. To my eye, 
http://www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Asher2.0@9.75/Buoy6-10.25.jpg and
http://www.iwsf.com/RecordApplications/Asher2.0@9.75/Buoy2-9.75.jpg
show clear transgression of this rule.
However I have never seen this rule applied. Given the rules on deviation it seems superfluous. Given the rules on boat and gate width it does not make sense to me. (Perhaps it is a very old legacy rule from before Bob\'s video analysis program?) 
Rule 14.05(i) has the \"tunnel width\" 1.9m to 2.2m. The equivalent figure for round buoys is about 1.85m to 2.31m 
Rule 10.01(b) has the boat beam between 1.8 to 2.5, so if one has an allowably wide boat and narrow course it is possible drive the boat straight down the centre-line and have the boat outside the bounds on both sides at the same time. 
On the other hand, with an allowably narrow boat and wide course, it is possible to deviate more than 200mm and still be within \"bounds\".
I\'m interested to know any history of this section of rule 14.11, whether anyone has a different interpretation or thinks it serves any purpose.
Should the line of \"bounds\" be drawn at the inside, centre or outside of the line of boat guides?
I think the rule could probably be dropped. 
2012-12-09
Larry Gisler comments: For sure is boat is out of rules
2012-12-09
Felix Loreto comments: Rule 14.15 clearly says:
A mark or small post on the top of the windshield that is visible in the end-course video camera (both directions) shall be placed 20 cm from the center of the windshield on both sides of the center to aid in the determination of the 20 cm deviation.
I believe this is the best way to determine boath path. If marks are not available on boat, then a record may/should not be given?
2012-12-09
Bob Corson comments: There is a split window which gives two vertical markers which are sufficent since you can average the position to get the center.  In this case, the pylon is visible from both directions.
2012-12-10
Candido Moz comments: As gill say, has other passes been verified or only will passes?
was the boat \"slaloming\" for the whole event or......?
I think in cases like this other passes need to be verified and if more are incorrect, then some actions should be taken against the Chief Judge and the Driver. - And also we need to decide what to do with the score of the event.
For Will Record, - not according to the rules - not possible to approve it.
BUT TWO TIME IN THE SAME YEAR, IS MUCH TO MUCH.
I hope he can do it agai, but if not, we are partly responsible for this lack.
Because rules are there to be respected and followed, and we should make this happened.
End course boat path verifications.
We must accept that is really difficult to verify boat path in real time, fot that reasons, during the last two summers but especially during this summer we have work in conjunction with Donal Conolly of Splash Eye, to create a software which automatically verifies the boat path in slalom. 
The software have being tested during last summer, and now is ready. And for next season it will be available and given free to all Federation in E&A.
2012-12-10
Inessa Potes has read the issue and has no comment
2012-12-10
Bob Corson comments: I have asked for the end course video to review.
2012-12-10
Bob Corson comments: This issue is a difficult one for us.  We know that a fairly small movement in the boat (20 cm) can make a very large difference in the skier performance on very short lines. We have end course video that can show this.  However, the end course video was meant as a monitoring method that would prevent drivers from deliberately helping some or all of the skiers because they were being watched.  Extending the use of the end course video to be a real time monitoring mechanism is certainly possible, but it introduces yet more technology which complicates the event and makes it more expensive and requires more personnel.  It is also another component to break down thus requiring us to consider that effect and make rules on what to do.  Do we require 2 systems so if one breaks we are still OK.  It is a difficult path for us to take.  Maye this is something that is only needed for 10.25 or shorter.  I don\'t necessarily have an answer,  but we should think about the questions we are asking and the possible requirements we are putting on tournaments.
2012-12-10
Brian Woolley comments: The addirules make it the region\'s responsibility to monitor endcourse of homologated tournaments in general.
14.15 ....The video tape shall be forwarded to the Region Tournament Council for monitoring immediately after the tournament. The Council may cancel results that do not conform to rules 1.11, 14.01 , 14.03 and 14.11.....
2012-12-10
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: i agree with candido on verifying rest of results and what actions to be considered for the chief judge and driver but more importantly we need to find out if integrity is in question here rather than just bad officiating. either way if no action is taken new judges, officials and drivers that all regions are developing might be in danger of travelling down this route. i can see who the chief judge for this event is but cannot find information on who the driver is in the homologation dossiers. 
2012-12-10
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah comments: i now got the full officials list from usawaterski site. as for additional rules to be written to further control bad driving i do not deem it neccessary. suffice it is for the chief judge to be vigilant and rely on end course video reviews to take further actions as neccessary if he/she suspects or notices bad driving. 
2012-12-16
Dimos Alexopoulos comments: Following the rules, the chief judge usually monitores the boat path, especially on the short ropes. But it is not possible just by looking at the screen to judge the cumulative driving error. The only thing you can see is if the boat has deviated more than usual from the center.
So in our next discutions: either we will be facing situations like this one (were the CJ did not give a reride), or we should decide to use Spach Eye system (or any other...) with wich we can have an immediate warning that the boat was not correct, during the whole pass.
I also feel that is sad for a skier to try hard and not succed his goals because of the impossibility to monitor the boat path with accurancy, on the site.
Replied
Ryan Dodd - Commented
Felix Loreto - Commented
Jose Antonio Perez Priego - Commented
Bruce Cockburn - Commented
Hanifah Yoong Yin Fah - Commented
Jacinta Carroll - Commented
Larry Gisler - Commented
Gill Hill - Commented
Hannu Rintanen - Commented
Inessa Potes - Commented
Candido Moz - Commented
Jeffry Armstrong - Commented
Sergio Font - Commented
Glen Williams - Commented
Peter Person - Commented
Bob Corson - Commented
Dimos Alexopoulos - Commented
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